Hey there, recently megel has written down his ideas about the scout class... which i unfortunetly dont find the liking of. Therefor im posting my own suggestion of what should happend with the scoutclass. (note: from my understanding a shotty is a must and a "sniper" is a nono acording to the devs, hence im going by those basics.) Current idea: The Scout: Recon/Infiltration/assault specialist class Squad leader abilities: Mass Hide (no changes) + Radar Sweep (recon with +10 sec duration and 50% further range) Aura: +5% speed boost, +50% stamina regen Specials: -10% resistance to explosives, +5% resistance to bullets, +75 stamina (yes this means he can sprint for a LONG distance without being exhausted, may need a slight reduction... needs testing), +10% speed in veichles Available Secondary arms: silenced pistol (pistol1 with 2 less dmg, 15 in total, + extremely quiet) Available Primary arms: Pump-action Shotty (normal melee on rightclick... 2 shoot kill unless HS, may need 3 vs upgraded riflemen... very loud weaponry... 6-8 cartridge capacity... needs testing) smg1 smg2 Available Explosives (without 2x from ammo upgrade): 2 stun sticky bombs 2 smoke grenades (DOES NOT BREAK HIDE, +25% area of effect) 2 thermal mines (25 dmg short range explosion, burns infantry for 5 dmg per second for 10 seconds, general veichles gain 50% heat, CV's gain 20%... this mine deals only 5 dmg to buildings if triggered) 2-3 EMP grenades (puts turrets in the disabled state for 10 seconds and remains in it unless given attention by an engineer, needs testing in terms of minimum duration and capacity) Skills: Stealth Specialist (Hide and Radar Stealth combined) No Trace (Kill messages are not displayed. Weapons make significantly less noise. Running/walking makes no noise. Muzzle flash dulled significantly. Can “finish off” wounded enemies so that an engy can not revive them, note: its not a instant ability.) Enhanced senses (Shows cloaked targets on the minimap like before but also gives the player info about infantry locations nearby, iow the player turns into a camera with info only for himself and it also grants +5% accuracy) Assault (+5% bullet resistance, +5 hp, +15% veichle speed and removes smoke effects) Recon Armor (-20 hp, +15% speed, sprint bonus speed +25%) Satchel Charges (unlocks 2 remote detonated satchel charges that is anti-wall and turret only which pretty much owns any wall in its blast radius while 2 is needed to destroy a turret... iow antistalement bombs. Deployment does not break hide and is dropped like a mine, triggered by rightclick. it can be defused and has a blast radius of approximately a HE shell) Sabotage changes: DoT on larger buildings is 1hp per 9 seconds... iow sabotage will not be a structure killing ability while solo. (33% of previous) DoT on turrets is 2hp per 3 seconds. (2x from the previous) Armory: Ammo and health crates take FOUR times as long to give ammo/health (2x from the previous) Repair Station: Takes FOUR times as long to repair a vehicle (2x from the previous) Radars/Cameras dropped by players can be sabotaged to give their effect to the scouts team, 0 Damage over time. Barrack: Players spawn with 75% hitpoints (50% was the former value) Binoc changes: usage on enemy infantry tags them on the map for 60 seconds and show their hitpoints. (grants 0.5 point if killed by a friendly) usage on enemy buildings tags them on the map for 150 seconds and show their hitpoints. (grants 0.25 point if killed by a friendly) usage on enemy veichles tags them on the map for 60 seconds and give armor detection to anyone viewing it. (grants 1 point if killed by a friendly) usage on enemy MINES puts a red skull icon over them for 180 seconds... in the same way as revive is basically. (grants 0.5 point if defused) Max 10 targets. (excludes mines which can be marked a infinitive ammount) I've already asked a lot of clanners about their oppinions and ideas while tweaking things acordingly, but none the less i dont feel its "done", so any comments or oppinions about it is highly appreciated (whatever it may be)
that's cool, let's implement it. Oh wait, it's already in the game. I like the idea of throwing smoke grenade not breaking hide.
except the fact the disabling effect last for a very brief moment and ur own teamflash last longer. >_> in other words its not much good unless u plan to camp and throw concussion nades all day... which pretty much stop combat and is anoying just in general. The EMP grenade wouldnt flash ur own team and allow them to keep up combat without interuption from a sudden flash effect, + it would disable a turret completely unless a engineer fix it... it wont go back online and woop ur team mates ass if you try a rush.
The closer to the turret the flash will explode, the longer the turret will be disabled (up to 11 seconds on direct hit, as far as I remember). Learn to aim
may be the case, yet that would still contain the flash effect and the turret wouldnt keep itself disabled either.
This is one of the best scout suggestions I've seen so far. If it was implemented tommorow, I'd be pleased. It's one of the few suggestions that feels like it's been made by someone who knows the game enough to have a good understanding of cause+effect. My only major worry here is the aura effect, Aura: +5% speed boost, +50% stamina regen That seems OP. Remember that all the auras currently are pants, so making really good auras is a whole suggestion of its own, don't fuse it with others. I'd be happier with say... Aura: +7% speed boost, +20% stamina regen Honestly though, really good job here.
I like it except: I hate finishing off people, unless we get unlimited tickets, it'll suck. No-one will ever take Recon.
I highly recommend you just make the recon armor a 50% sprint speed boost upgrade. The reason is that every skill so far is a pure boost to characters. While I don't dislike the idea of them being customization both ways, it goes against the tone of the mod to take away the capabilities of a class. As for the shotgun. Currently, the SMG2 is capable of killing someone every half a second of use. So is the SMG1... I just realized... meaning that the SMG2 has the same damage per second on no significant advantages. That is a problem for another time. The point is, they are capable of being used at moderate range, if necessary and kill a man in less than a second, without headshots. You propose a shotgun that is pump action (so less than 1 shot a second), and takes 2-3 shots to kill. That means the weapon would be about as effective as a pistol at close range, and dramatically worse at farther ranges. I have tested out several varieties of shotgun, and they generally become reasonable as combat weapons somewhere around 150-200 damage per second if they have a slow rate of fire (like you seem to propose) or about 250-300 damage per second if they are rapid-fire. This is just to give you a general idea of the numbers involved for such a weapon. Assuming conventional shotgun spread, a 144 damage shot has about a 50/50 chance of killing in close range. Guns in the mod are very powerful. Additionally, it has been shown that people really seem to hate hide as a skill because it slows down the game. I like the idea of a stealth skill for them, but would recommend something that prevents them from ever being locked on by turrets or showing up on the map(such as by commander-lock or camera). Finally, your idea for emp grenades doesn't really work well. I'd recommend turning them into something that can be used against walls, or just improving the concussion grenade's anti-turret effect. Finally +75% stamina is a bit ridiculously large. I recommend toning it down to +50%. I like this idea, it is similar to those I and others have suggested. I definitely think this is the direction the scout should take.
100%+15%(speed boost)+15%(recon)= 130% speed. sprinting = 200% factor... along with recon which modify it with a 125% factor... Congratulation, a 250% sprint factor. 130%*250% = 325% speed. this is one fast little sucker with the possible equipment of a shootgun and stun stickys... and lets presume its a scout aura while we are at it... 337.5% speed... in other words... its like applying a bit more than a 2nd sprint effect on ur character.... i dont know about you guys... but i think thats a heck load of a boost. But if you guys consider it way too little to remove 20 hp, then i guess that could be altered. i have to agree with that, 5% speed & 50% stamina regen is simply too much of a boost compared to other auras. i wouldnt add any higher raw speed boost though. The thing is... speed boosts add a solid +% speed which is the double while sprinting, and i kinda dont want to give the scout even higher speeds while sprinting... hence i went for a high regen instead of raw boost in speed. Regen in itself boosts your speed over time though, which means if a whole squad want to travel a long distance it will use alot of sprinting which in itself adds a certain % of speed... while not giving too much of a direct impact on combat situations. hence, i chosed a higher regen instead of speed boost, but its a wee bit too high =/ i think something along with 5% speed and 15% regen should be more than sufficent. or optionally 10% without any regen at all... yet i think the scout may become a wee bit too fast then. (350% speed is pushing it imo)
i felt that 50% would be too much (read the post below urs for reasons) but if its proven that the current boost i wrote down wouldnt be enough... then it could be altered i guess. The reason i want to slightly lower the HP is due to being so darn fast that tanks WILL have issues at aiming at the little fella, hence i felt it was necassairy to lower the hitpoints slightly to give them a better chance at taking them out, same goes for any situation where the speed additions of the recon armor is applied, the person will be very fast and have the option of a SMG2 or Shotgun. (which both work very well while on the move) SMG2 is far more accurate while continously firing and running while having a bit less base aim for longer ranges... the smg1 on the other hand is worse at close quarter while having a good aim sufficent to be used effectively at long range combat. not to mention falloffs which instantly reduce a % of dmg dependant on distance. They are rather diffrent from eachother even if you havnt realised it, but yes... as with all guns they have the capability to kill. it would be a quick pumpaction shotgun (remember, these are guys on super steroids or super nanites in their bodys), iow the reload rate would be below a half sec and take 2 shoots to kill with, while retaining near-max lethality while sprinting without having to use up points in accuracy... something the SMG 1 totally lack and smg2 slightly lack. As for all the specific data... i cant answear, balancing a gun takes time and im also not in charge of such things. the benefits of taking a SMG1 or SMG2 would be longer lethality range, yet requiring accuracy to be on par with a shootgun at close quarter. Yes ive heard it quite a lot aswell, yet then turrets would give them quite a pain in the ass and disallow any form of sabotaging/planting satchels unless they got emp nades to cover all the MGs / being able to avoid the enemy fire. Hence i thought it would be a good idea to let this feature remain, to the diffrense of before there is no scout rifle, so camping on some random hill doing fuck all wont be as feasable as going up at close range and have fun Also, speed upgrades improves ur hide speed aswell. Elaborate in what way they "don't work"? if walls is the issue, then you got either a engineer or satchel charges to sort that obstacle. i tested the sprint and it lasted about 5 sec (all devs were afk when i checked IRC so i tested myself)... so a +75% would be 3,75 sec extra. which imo doesnt sound all that much... but 7,5 sec instead of 8,75 is all fine aswell, yet some testing would be needed to determine which would be the most suitable.
urgh mashav... why did u have to type in that manner... replying is such a pain then >_> (i cant quote ur quote... oh well.) #1: im going with what i feel like is a good move, hide+sniper = bad imo (too much camping noobs thinking its counter strike)... and i dont really mind the shotty at all. #2 about speed: its mentioned in an above post replying to robotek. #3 10% is nada... but if everyone is bothered by that, then it can be added to the assault or stealth skill i guess. #4 Since scouts generally go around in their veichles, jump out, hide, sab, move on... then i figured having radar stealth and hide as a combo would be a nice availability... imagine that you have a mainbase on lets say.... cyclopean. You send in a scout with hide, plant satchels along the walls, go off and sab the turrets on the sides and then call in the cavalary, when the tanks/apcs are just by the gates: BOOOM, all walls go kablowit and ur team can easily insert into their base and wreak havoc. your team is immedietly fired upon by some ML's placed around the corner, ur scout runs up and throw some emp nades and disable them. I dont know about you, but having the ability to do such a thing with just 2 skill points is a darn nice little trick which could unlock some really sweet strategic options. #5 My toughts upon the whole no-revive thing is that if a person cant gain assistance in 5-10 seconds while the scout stands in the open and breaks ur neck off, then its not all too bad, the scout risks his own life in the process of doing so and you most likely dont have backup nearby. its a way of ending the map when its 0:0 and huge pushs are made. #6 the 5% accuracy is just a little bonus which imo fit to the fact ur senses were enhanced. "Senses still needs a minimap indicator of specific range."... uhm... this? "enhanced mini-map displays everything that the enemy can normally see- you know exactly what direction the enemy is facing and you can see hidden scouts. ", iow the way the current skill work. #7 the +15% speed would go well togheter with the already given 10% speed which in short would allow you to pass that barrier where your tank is faster than the enemy... + dodge rockets, run from danger, relocate faster.. etc etc.... which is a very neat thing imo. +5% bullet resistance is helpfull whenever ur on the ground and allows you to survive just that little bit extra. The "removes smoke effects" means ur immune to smoke grenades.... Which is... a very very nice "assault" feature. #8 explained in the reply to trixster. #9 Becouse it simply is that darn good. :p #10 if the scouts puts his time into sabotaging the turrets instead of just disabling them with emp grenades then i think he deserve a little DOT aswell. #11 a bit too low imo, a shootgun/smg2 and massive speed upgrades would make it... too easy... and im quite sure the thermal mines would finish off enemys before they can spawn enough people to counter a rax rush #12 I never intended it to... i forgot to notice on that. *edits post* #13 hide in itself will allow you to spring sudden attacks with ease, let the enemy slightly pass ya, then uncloack and sprint up with hideous speeds and shoot em with the shotty in the back, then listen to those poor spines making the lovely crackling sound or just any tactical strategys in general such as the one noted earlier in the post.
Ok I'll do it this way then I'm not defending the scoutrifle in its current form, I was just pointing out that he also said no sabotage on non-engi buildings. Where exactly? Did you mean Roflcopter Rego? I don't think everyone will, But I do. Besides the engi's coincidental ammo ability and repair(which without the upgrade is rather worthless anyways) I don't think there should be any innate bonuses to tanks. Problem is, that in order to get close enough (without showing on a camera or being targeted by the comm) you'd have to crawl slowly and take probably about 1 1/2 mins to get close, sab plant then detonate. All the while you're nowhere near your team. Your team would probably be better off with you just being an engi, seismicing the walls down. The starting level 3s are never a problem anyways. Counter example: Your squad is moving onto NW from mid. There is a level 3 turret blocking your way. If you kill it, you will alert the enemies. If you wait too long, the rush the enemy is doing on your main will have been defeated causing them to respawn at north. You have to wait for your scout to crawl all the way over to it and sab it. Also, I don't want the scout to run around, sab then run off. Since when do scouts have to stand in the open, and since when does it take 5-10 seconds to kill someone? As an engi I get plenty of kills from cover with the smg. I just mean a small green ring on the minimap showing how far it will detect. Its annoying when you're trying to protect an area and have to guess how close you have to be to detect people. I was fine with the 15% speed, I was saying that I would prefer another vehicle bonus instead of the other parts. Would you not be able to see the smokes at all, or what? How would it work? I just think that rather than having it that powerful, it could be toned down and just be a normal weapon. I don't want another sabotage like catastrope, where the limitations on it justify its power. If it was significantly easier to do(which its not for your outline) there would be no point. Wouldn't this also just mean they're encouraged to sab even after they've emped a turret? I suppose, but I never had a problem with the 50%. That and the fact that I oppose the thermal mines. If theres any turrets, or other people nearby, you will die. Waiting for people to pass you indicates that you're not with your teamates, which also limits you. If you're attempting to attack a fortified position, you either won't get close enough, or die after killing maybe 1 person.
@Zeke I dislike the theme skills into which you're trying to bundle a metric ton of features. I think it's a sign of a lack of focus in class design that DonMegel also suffered from, unless you intend to do the same for the other classes. Even then it obviates the utility of the General skills, especially Speed Upgrade and Stamina Upgrade. Also, useless silenced pistol is useless.
The scout in general is simply unfocused and that seems to be the whole problem with the discussion. Really, we need to decide what we want it to do, what part we want it to play and even if we want it at all!
I tend to think that I should decide what you want it to do without asking you and then go and balance it thusly, giving it an inherent coherence and structure which everyone else will then learn to like. People are wonderfully varied creatures, which is another way of saying they are a garbled mess, which is why anything designed by people rather than person tends to be a garbled mess also. As to why it should be me, that's just because I tend to trust myself to do things rather than other people. I already have most of the work done for a balance that should work, I just need those weapon script modifications I asked for and it will be ready to test. At the moment it only works on infantry maps.
Testing seems rather unproductive to me. Aside from getting bugs out, it only serves to give other, inferior, individuals the opportunity and motivation to voice their opinions. :p
That and I doubt the devs will implement it unless I can get some sort of supportive mob behind it, considering that I basically changed every gun drastically it needs testing if only to show the world the extent of my genius. Basically all I did was make the SMGs good, but give the engineers limited ammo for them, the scout has plenty of good skills like silencer (which needs fixing, it doesn't seem to make the gun quieter) and enhanced senses, not to mention melee upgrade and hide, those four combined with a powerful gun would make it a good combat class on infantry maps and reassigning the scout rifles to a role similar to the carbine/50cal would make it a solid class on other maps.
Doesn't that devalue the rifleman? Especially if the SMG1 still have a reasonable range, it would seem that you just made the scout and engineer able to kill infantry, while making the rifleman give up tremendous versatility for what will likely amount to only a minor improvement. It isn't like the engineer will 'really' ever have a poor ammo supply, because they have access to the ammo box. All I can see happening with yours is that the number of rifleman decrease heavily, the number of engineers seeing real combat gets a significant increase, and the number of scouts increases a little bit. The overall usefulness of the class will still pale in comparison to the engineer and the rifleman becomes the new scout, only slightly easier to play. Even if you wanted just to give the scout a unique SMG, it just shifts them closer to being like a rifleman than a truly unique class.
No actually I gave the riflemen access to a shotgun which combines the best elements of both submachineguns (and removed the assault rifle) making them the most versatile assault class, capable of killing at mid-range with volume as with the SMG1, and at point blank with speed, as with the SMG2. I turned the carbine/hr into identical clones which do limited damage per second but which do it over any range, making them very good ranged weapons but making any other gun better at close range, making the rifleman the only class with precision long range ability. The HMG has functionality similar to the assault rifle except its primary virtue is that it can sustain fire, when prone it is accurate and comparable to the carbine, when crouched it is comparable to an SMG, and when standing it does work but it drains stamina rather rapidly, its drawback is that while it can do a lot of things it can't do them in any stance, and it drains stamina heavily if you try to use it on the move, so the carbine is better for cover shooting, and the shotgun is better for assaulting enemy positions. Planned changes include making the scout rifle into the HR/carbine and making the hr/carbine into a general purpose assault rifle, half way between the single shot and an SMG, it would excel in no role but it would be useable in almost all situations. The HMG should be made deployable and its prone functionality would be made into a deployed functionality, making it effective but requiring careful positioning, as using it prone would leave you unable to get out of the way, so finding a good wall to hide behind and setting up on that so you can duck would be most advisable. As I also cut the rate of fire of the HMG and halved the clip capacity (although not the max ammo count) it would be perfectly suited to recieving minor vehicle damage, one or two damage per round would be sufficient to allow it to harm vehicles. I'd also like the scout rifles to be able to punch through objects and do reduced damage to enemies on the other side if they are near the exit point. I would consider giving the scout access to the scout rifle, the SMGs, and the assault rifle, letting them choose between (exclusively) the long range weapon, which would make a mix of riflemen/scouts be the preferable anti-infantry lineup as riflemen would not have access to that weapon, general purpose fighting making them a match for riflemen, or specialised close range fighting (being able to choose between close and extreme close range). That combined with the scout's steath and information gathering abilities, as well as possibly a few new useful tools such as a wall breaker sticky or a short range teleport (to get through walls without breaking them/evade capture by jumping onto the other side of a wall or into a building in crossroads for example, also a very interesting mechanic in that it allows you to attack from unexpected angles) would make the scout a very functional and potentially very different class to play compared to the rifleman, although they would both be geared towards the same general goal, killing enemies. I don't see an issue with having riflemen and scouts being the main combat classes for the infantry game, with wallbreaker stickies and a short range forward-facing teleport (basically you can teleport through a wall if there's space on the other side) would give the scout the tools for assaulting enemy positions, breaking down walls and killing enemies behind them, while the riflemen with their shotgun and damage skill (which could use a small buff) and armor (which could do with being replaced by an actual health bonus of say 15 HP) would make the ideal killers with their shotguns, as the shotguns last longer without needing reloading than the SMGs, the SMGs although deadly tend to run out of ammo quickly.
