"world in conflict" based resource system

i would like to suggest a "world in conflict" type resource system, to overhaul the current one

why overhaul: it promotes steam rolling and always makes 1 team very disadvantaged, or endless stalemates (while we supposedly want what's in between)

i suggest a "pooled" resource system, that replentishes itself over time, until it hits its "max" (further referred to as "cap") automatically veeeery slowly and additionally you get your resources back over time if the stuff you bought is destroyed

just like world in conflict, its a RTS game, but it just makes more sense using when combining RTS with human controlled infantry, since its rather forgiving for unit mistakes (you get the res back etc)

basically, this comes down to a pool of resources with a max value and a min value, that replentishes to full automatically but extremely slow, and the replenish speed can be boosted by 2 ways

1: a very small constant boost per ref node
2: a large short termed boost, when your purchased equipment is destroyed (lasts as long as it takes to "repay" the bought equipment, so in reality no resources are "added", just payed back over time handicapping you in time not money)

so if i would buy a heavy tank, the price is taken from the resource pool and if i for example would drive it in the water and destroy it, my team's pool would get a resource replenishment boost over the time of a minute that lasts just long enough to repay the tank i wreaked

if 2 people wreak there tank, the replenish rate stacks in speed

if the resource cap is reached, no resources are given any longer, until somehow, they drop again to a value lower then the cap

refineries:

refineries are changed quite a lot in this system, they still give some additional extra income (very small) but there main power is in them increasing the res cap with a set amount per built refinery

losing a refinery while you are at your cap limit equals in your resources not replenishing until after they drop below the "new" cap

research:

research takes its resources from the pool the same way as vehicles do, but they repay the cost after completion the same way as if a tank was destroyed by boosting the income speed for the total amount of resources over a determined period of time


buildings:

same as vehicles, build em and you pay the price, lose them and they are re-payed over time slowly by a resource gain boost

numbers:

for the number crunchers and possibly to give some of you a better idea, guesstimates!

the initial cap could be set at lets say 4000, and each built refinery adds 350 to that cap

for resource regain i would say the stock refill would be +20 resources per minute, so doing nothing for an hour would give you 600 resources (that can be used over and over and over again)

the extra resource regain per refinery built would be around +10 per minute

that makes that with stock refill and 4 refineries, you can add 3600 resources in the course of an hour to your pool, and your total cap is 5400 (stock cap + 4 refs)


a turret or jeep destroyed would pay all its cost (equip plus base cost) back over the course of 1 minute

a light tank or apc destroyed would pay back over the course of 2 minutes

a medium tank destroyed would pay back over the course of 4 minutes

a heavy tank over the course of 8 minutes

an artillery piece would pay back over the course of 16 minutes

a normal building over the course of 5 minutes

examples:

for example, a fictive medium tank costs 800 res,
our cap is at 4350, we have 1000 resources left and we have 2 refinerys

if we buy one of this medium tanks, our res would go to 200, from thereon, after 5 minutes we would have 400 resources again, (200 + (5* (20+10+10))) if after these 5 minutes it would be destroyed, our resource gain would spike to 240 per minute (standard income + 200 for the medium tank) for 4 minutes, then reset to the 40/min

Q: those values of resources payback per minute is very high, wont it stack up to really large numbers in the end?
A: they will probably be displayed as per second in game, so 200 res per minute is about 3 res and a bit

Q: with those times of repayment, and the average cost of those tanks, building a lot of heavy tanks kind of cripples your res flow a little
A: yes, intended... light tanks cant outmatch heavies in combat but they can be made at a far more rapid succession then other tanks

Q: how will we give certain refineries have a higher yield then others?
A: i think this is inherently a bad idea, but you could just make the resource value we have now (X1, X2 etc) multiply the standard yield i gave here

Q: wont this induce rushes, since you get 4000 res at gamestart
A: for obvious reasons the cap should not be filled at gamestart, i would say 750 resources are given on gamestart, to get a small base going

Q from Brutos: doesn't this just add a "fancy vehicle limit"
A: in a way yes, but in a way no, the thing is you can field way more light tanks then you can field heavy tanks with the same cap (as would be expected from resources, not a simple vehicle limit) also losing a tank does not directly repay it as is with a vehicle limit, it repays over time, so losing a lot of tanks in succession gives you the disadvantage of having very few "material" for a while but the advantage of a lot of resource "gain" fancy stuff with

also its noteworthy that buildings are also in this "vehicle limit", and to some degree research (for as long as it is researching)
so having lots of random stuff basically makes you be able to build less tanks, or in other words if the enemy dominates 2/3 the map, you will have an advantage of being able to field more tanks

Q: would this not change a lot of our empiresmod?
A for the commander? hell yea... but for the normal average player nothing really would change, besides the fact that tank purchasing will be far more streamlined and swift, you can instantly see if its worth to wait in the vehicle factory (check your resources gain)

Q: what about recycle, since losing a building to the enemy gives the resources back too eventually
A: recycle would probably just give the full amount back instantly, so there is a difference

Q: by tans on irc: would the output of refs be similar to what it is now?
A: in effect it would be less, but resources can be used over and over again in some fields so the "worth" should be about the same, ofcourse the numbers named could be very unbalanced i just put something on it to make it "work" for the idea
like, you only need 800 res to build an endless stream of 800 res tanks but you can have only 1 at a time and there will be some time in between each tank for the res to recuperate



so, what do you guys think? good? bad? ugly?

 

I actually really like this, it looks like this would be a good way of stopping that annoying ass 'slippery slope' effect...

I especially like the refinary idea, it would stop the enemy from winning simply from controlling that special ref point in the center while still giving them the larger resource cache bonus.

Although it looks like a bitch to implement (I honestly couldn't say though, I don't code) but hopefully for 3.0?

 

I like it, it add more tactics to the game, you can go alot of little tanks or a few large tanks.

but what about conquest maps like escort? also could this allow the commander to buy support (supply drop [ammo+health], emergency repair, carpet bombing, eca...) and give the commander a bit more of an RTS feel?

 

The more I think about it, the more it makes sense.

Two thumbs up for this idea!

 

gee guys, i would have expected at least some negative reactions :D

 

ffaagg

some common sense is needed, true, but i think this will lead to people waiting less in the vehicle factory for various reasons (although as with everything, we wont know untill we actually confront this system with the "unintended stupidity" that newbies have when they dont get the game mechanic/only think about buying a tank

yes it could, then again so could the old system in a way, but it is possible!

 

Yeah I still don't really get this idea.

It's easier for me to equate it with the oldskool mechanism of units drawing power in the field, than anything else really. So refs become more like power stations and buildings draw an initial construction cost, though no upkeep because they have their own 'generators'. Research and vehicles take power, but it is returned once the research is completed or the vehicle is destroyed.

That's just the way I think of it to make it make sense in my mind...because a cap on resources sounds strange to me, and regeneration too, although less so.

 

I like this. It adds the potential for mixed vehical forces (whitch is always good) i'd set the base res max res to 2000 and make each ref increase it by 750. Thus at 4 ref's you can build a few heavys but it's more difficult to mass produce them.

This will make good drivers the only way to have alot of heavys.

 

This suggestion would take away nearly completely the need to fight for refineries.
Then we also could remove all refineries and resources and spawn tanks for free. But that would be another game and so I don't like this.

 

that all depends on balancing, it is true that with the correct (or false balancing) you can make refineries almost obsolete, but then again so can you with the current system

 

Thinking about it, Superweapons with this economy would become a double edged sword, in other words, very costly and have a very slow return time.

So using it my break a stalemate and rush the enemy, but if the rush fails than it leaves the rushing team very vulnerable.

Also researching it is also very costly, 4 or 5 different types would be available;
>nuke in physics (kills inf. and slightly damages tanks)
>bio. warhead in biological (contaminates an area)
>carpet bombing in chemistry (drops HE bombs at random in area)
>EMP bomb in electrical (stalls tanks).

But don't let me turn blizzerd's Post into a topic for SuperWeapons,
plz continue talking about the economy idea...

 

its no use, brutos and kanetw like it very much but kane said he has no time to start a project like this for empiresmod

we really need to consider kidnapping our devs away from there social lives

 

i hear that 2.25 will allow you truly modify scripts, can't we just make it happen by modifying these scripts?

 

no, i dont see it happen sorry

 

Well if that's the case, we'd better focus on the other 4 or so pretty good gameplay suggestions for now...right? There are some other good suggestions that don't require an overhaul like this one that it might be better to champion, for now.

I be repeatin' my phrasing a lot

 

It doesn't matter how good the idea is, its never going to get added.

 

Then posting is only for trolls? Skill stacking already got tested, albeit in a form that I didn't quite want.