Why don't we have this?

This idea belongs in the "crazy ideas that are outside the box" thread...er...otherwise known as "research is f'ing confusing".

 

Right off the bat, the weight granularity advantages are tremendous. If I need 5 more weight, I might splice in a lighter engine to get my baby on the field.

Otherwise, I think you're making a very strong claim about planning for a few extreme usages instead of a more balanced setup.

I hate Turbine, but if I expect to make runs in an enemy main, I might splice 3-phase (or any fast engine) with Turbine to provide some umph when my APC is almost gone.

Extremes aren't as attractive as you make them sound.

Now I understand that the engine system doesn't seem to have a concept of "slots" like weapons, but this is a serious hotbed for strategy, even if you don't get any new scripts.

 

No, that's how Empires absorbant actually works. You take damage and it cools you. It's not huge but I pushed it about as far as I can.

The whole point of it is to be extreme. Anything less won't force alternative playstyles. There are games were .5 of a difference in some circumstances can make a monumental difference. Dota is one of these games. Empires is not.

And with regard to "make sure there are no OP combos". Please re-read that statement and consider the idiocy of it. Instead of balancing 6 engines, we have to balance 21 engines. And that's on a per-vehicle basis. On top of that, I don't think you quite understand how things are implemented. You can't magically make one engine be less powerful in a combo than another. You have to reduce the effectiveness of that engine, which has a knock-on effect on every single other combination, not to mention using that engine itself.

As I can see in the other thread, you've looked at the engine scripts now. If you had any understanding of what you were looking at, you'd know it isn't just a case of "oh take X properties of this and halve them because you're only using half of it". That just isn't how it works, and that's a very limited view. Different aspects of an engine complement other aspects. You can't just start mish-mashing them because it's not a simple situation. We aren't talking about some game where an engine has 4 properties each represented by a rating out of 10.

Honestly Spartacus, of all people, I really would expect you to be smarter about this. I'm quite disappointed in you.

 

You really have done a lot with them, then. I guess I'll have to get to grips with engines and armours actually being quite distinctive now. Fun! :D

 

I updated all the descriptions in the most recent patch, so they should be relatively accurate. But yeah, that's what I've really been trying to do. I've done the best I can with the room available.

 

I get that the elasticity of parameters isn't constant across games. That is to say that "extremes" are relative.

Considering that, there are still situations when I, personally, want to "water down" the traits of an engine or armor into something a little closer to average. But that's just me and I only drive APCs. I don't know how other players feel.

If we have n 1-slot engines, that provides n+n^2 permutations for each vehicle, so I'm not sure where you get your 6-21 relationship, but whatever. I get that it's a lot of potential setups.

That's only because all of the current engines are these insane frankenstein creations that pick one token "parameter" and max it in one direction.

The current engines are bipolar. You're trying to get all of the possible deviations out of five engines and its just madness.

If you don't get biodiesel or 3-phase in a pub, you will lose. I just played two matches where Wookie insisted that we get Coolant. It didn't end well, partially because we were handcuffed by Coolant and partially because Absorbant is so fucking horrible. In past games, I've seen coms open Electrical entirely for 3-phase and nothing else.

I've been pub-comming a lot lately and I've been ripping my ass apart thinking of a good pub research path. It's gotten to the point where I choose based on available engines. For big maps, Electrical wins because 3-phase is amazing and Reactive & Homing are good enough. For smaller maps, Biology is pretty much the way to go. You get good APCs and a heavy-worthy weapon along with an idiot-proof engine and an idiot-proof armor.

The point is that while Turbine, Fission and Coolant are cute, they just don't cut the mustard when I need to field a half dozen tanks driven by mostly noobs. I'm sorry if you still think Empires should be balanced for "vet" games. You're delusional if you think the occasional scrim matters just because its videotaped and the hours of pub play are not meticulously recorded.

Even if this "combo" system simply isn't elegantly supported by the game, we could still have additional engines that are pretty average. Maybe there's a "compact" engine that only weighs 5 weight, but is almost identical to standard otherwise. On the flip side, maybe there's a "heavy" engine that has some buff, but weighs 60 weight. Maybe there's an engine that is better at cooling, but slow (i.e. retro coolant). Perhaps there's an engine that has mediocre horsepower, but is allowed to eventually accelerate to a higher speed?

You seem to believe that strategy can only occur at the fringes, but that's silly. Average vehicles are sometimes exactly what we need.

 

If we're going to go with Average armours and engines, there's really very little point in having any at all. We might as well just have Engine tier 1, tier 2 and tier 3, with 3 being the best. Likewise for armours.

The issues that you just listed are balance issues, not concept issues. Why?

Fission is unusable because I broke it. I haven't had chance to fix it yet, but I will do when I return to the UK in a few weeks.
Gas Turbine is more than viable as it's just improved standard. You can function quite easily on it.
Coolant is a very map dependent engine. I'll probably buff the cooling a bit further, but if you're getting Coolant on an open map, then you are going to lose. Just like if you get Fission on a closed map (when it's fixed), you are going to lose.

Absorbant is on the list to be buffed, because it's a little low on HP.

I don't balance for scrims at all, but I most certainly will not water the game down and remove strategy just so people have an easier time in pubs. As you stated in your post, it comes down to this: You personally want an easier time of strategy. You want every single combination to be viable on every single map and every single situation. That's not strategy. That makes research just entirely redundant. That removes a very important aspect of the RTS element, which in my opinion has been neglected for far too long in Empires.

To put it simply, I'm happy to argue, debate and take ideas for balance. But what you're suggesting is that we go in an entirely different direction with the strategic aspect of vehicle armament (removing it entirely), and to put it simply, I'm saying no.

 

The only problem with this is that each engine needs to at least be minimally useful in every situation because the players don't actually get to choose what engine they use. I've been in a shitload of games where some asshat com thinks he knows better than the 20 other players on the team and gets an engine that no one likes while the whole team is complaining (and some people out right refuse to use tanks with certain engines, thus losing the game by having everyone running around as infantry lategame)

 

YOU WILL LOVE THREE PHASE IF IT IS THE LAST THING I DO. :D
That is the engine that I've received the most complaints about researching, which I don't understand at all. "Too hard to handle, blah blah" It's not my fault that you don't have a basic understanding of how to drive. Usually I research Bio Diesel (grudgingly) when I get this complaint though. The biggest research decision that I disagree with and see all too often is researching composite when the team has very limited resources. "Composite is the best armor! Yay!" goodbye resource reserves. As far as engine goes, anything but fission and I'm dandy.

Honestly, I love the direction that the different engines and armors are going right now. I find that the current version is a little more restrictive on how crazy I can be with my research options and still be fine (absorbant and fission being close to worthless), but I like that each engine and armor has a distinct purpose and style. As Trickster basically said, without each one being unique, what would be the point? Glad to see from Trickster's last post that he knows about pretty much every major complaint I have about balancing right now.

 

Always pick biodiesel/3phase =/= unique and varied. All it does is create noob traps and fuck over players when you get certain stubborn com's.

 

Quit your slippery slope bullshit. This is not a yes-no decision.

It is definitely possible to accompany the current research will research that further fleshes out the strategic spectrum.

 

Without a doubt it is, but certainly not in the way you're suggesting.

 

Ice armor.




you already know what it does.

 

If you're hinting at tiered scripts, that is a definite no-no. The amount of work required to balance that is staggering. We tried that internally a few years ago, and the guy (Drag? Darg? I don't remember) who worked on it disappeared after a few tryouts, IIRC.

Want ideas? Have a look at Weedy's Altered Universe mod:

http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=6059
http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=5956

 

It melts right the fuck off when you get anywhere near yellow heat?

 

If by "tiered" you mean UML 2 and UML 3, then no. I didn't. I don't like the concept of a hard upgrade.

 

Magic armor, it makes you take damage to your mana instead of your health.