EDIT: After posting this seems a bit long, but I think if a lot of effort was put into balance then also a lot of effort should be put into constructive criticism of the result. If you don't have the patience to read the whole post then fine, but please have the courtesy to read it if you're going to reply, because I don't like to repeat myself. I know this was discussed a fair amount in the wake of the 2.21 release, but firstly there doesn't seem to be much that came out of it, secondly there's been more time for people to get used to the changes and thirdly I wasn't around immediately after the patch. :p I also know that a lot of work went into the current state of the weapons and that it was based on testers' feedback. I'm curious as to what that feedback was and the exact intended goals of the balance changes though, because I suspect the intended goals could have been achieved in a better way. I have to say I'm not really happy with the current weapons. I appreciate that a lot of work went into the balance and I know that the old system had its flaws so I wouldn't want a simple revert, but I do honestly think the old system was better, and I can sum up my feelings about the SMGs currently in four main points: The minimum spread on SMG1 is too low. The maximum spread on most weapons is too high. The damage falloff on most weapons is too severe for the current spread. Weapon accuracy and player movement speed do not complement each other. The trouble with the current system is that combat feels very haphazard and combat in general is a frustrating exercise that doesn't really reward the player for doing anything well. The SMG1 is ridiculously accurate at relatively long ranges while prone, but the damage is so pathetic that it's just annoying. At close range players can dodge and strafe too much for single shot firing to be effective, but if you fire even a 3 round burst your spread becomes wild. Typical close range fights between engineers when neither player has a surprise advantage result in both firing all of their SMG and pistol ammo, often with neither dying in the process, unless you reach point blank range. If you want to make SMGs poor at a distance where the rifleman should be better, then don't make them accurate enough to hit with the first shot every time as long as you lie prone. That just leads to people being pecked to death. If you want to discourage full auto fire then fine, but make sure you reward accurate, controlled burst fire by making it more effective in the process. I don't feel ineffective in combat as an engineer, I just find it tedious to have a big magazine and a nice rate of fire on my SMG yet the most effective way to use it is to pretend it's really a heavy rifle. There's really nothing more annoying than running between cover only to take a hit from an engineer lying prone on a hill 150m away. You can't go prone yourself and shoot back because he got the first shot in, you'll die by the time you reach the cover, especially if you don't have the stamina, yet it will be a slow and dragged out process as he fires his single shots. This isn't much fun for either party. Lastly, I'd like to repeat the often mentioned point that the pushback from being shot while crouched or prone is absurd and a complete pain in the ass for everyone involved. When being hit you get knocked off ledges, when hitting someone else you struggle to see if they're dead or not and often push people above you on cliffs back out of sight. I know friction is meant to be low on glycen but this firstly doesn't apply solely to that map and secondly shouldn't happen to prone players. Does it not feel strange to anyone else that you can push someone back a full 5 metres with bullets and yet it doesn't kill him? I don't expect or want Empires to be realistic but that doesn't mean it should be nonsensical!
The smgs should always be inferior compared to rifles. I dont have problems to kill people at short distance with the rifles exept the BeCar. We tested alot different burst fire modes in the playtest. If you make it slightly faster it would be absolutly overpowered. I think the falloff for the rifles is ok.
Wrong. You can increase the speed in the firing rate in weapons without overpowering it. Also, shameless plugin here. When I try weapon balancing, I get this.
I'm not talking about the rifles. Of course the rifles should always be better, I'm saying the SMGs should be less effective at range (through inaccuracy, not falloff) and easier to use at close range where combat right now is determined by who gets the lucky headshot.
I find a lot of extremes in the spread. It's almost absurd how you barely need to control the fire of the HMGs anymore. Same with SMG1.
killing people at range ain't easy with an SMG, if they have a rifle+accuracy they'll get yers most times. If you can't hit people close up with an SMG then you're not using it properly. tbh fixing the problems with melee would help (fire off 39 shots then punch to da face!), as it is melee is borked. And you can still kill 3 or even 4 people if you pop up over the wall and spray them in the head. as for falloff, well, yes, it's weird. I can't really say why, but it is just... weird. And why are you dodging between cover without a healer buddy? You're asking to be killed. also pushback really sux.
Weird; I'm finding, for me, it's much the opposite. I can never seem to make SMG1 work at a range, and it takes forever to recover accuracy on that thing. Then again, I don't always prone in combat, so that might be my first problem. I have more nitpicks with the new SMG2. While it is much better than the previous one, and nerfing the ammo was a great idea, it just doesn't feel useful. Even SMG1 seems to outperform it in close combat, because even though it does nice amounts of damage I can never seem to land any bullets on anything outside of 5-10 feet. Again, maybe my lack of prone is hurting this, and maybe I'm still coming off the power-drunk-ness of the 2.1 SMG2, but there's my $0.02.
Why is that absurd? It is a machine-gun, the ultimate weapon for killing infantry. You know that in IRL a machingun gives less recoil then an automatic (loading) carbine (And for you US and Eng people i mean an assault rifle, but sence that term is retarded and my country don't use it i don't either.)? That is because the machingun is heavier and keeps it own recoil down with its weight, and also you usually have machine-guns in a sling to support it. And for game purposes it is fine, the riflemen is supposed to be the best class at killing infantry, and with the HMG he is, also i find that i need accuracy upgrade to use the weapon at ranges, then damage upgrade :D . You are doing it wrong :p. Actually i find the smg 2 OP when i use it. Try burst fire with 2 shoots, it owns at ranges because they practically removed falloff for it, adn in close combat, just sit down and fire max 6 shoots bursts.
hehe so true as for the smg1 being "sniper" , what the fuck? its worthless on longer ranges now, in 2.2 you could go prone and first shot was nearly 100% accurate but now its fixed. smg2 owning? at ranges? go play the game dude..
Yeah i have, maybe you should learn to play it. The smg 2 is almost OP at small-medium ranges. Short bursts always hit and kills fast.
wtf? Yeah, it kills if you're lucky, that is... I've been in "smg2 vs smg2" situations many times without either player getting killed. Lucky headshots are the only situation, when it's actually able to kill anyone at medium to longer ranges. I seriously think that there's nothing wrong with the new smgs, but the 2.12 smgs were better in many ways, just add roll off and they'd be perfect for the game as it is now. Usually as engineer, I don't even bother shooting if the enemy isn't close enough. But even then it's more of luck than actuall "skill" of aiming. Just aim a little off the target and you can kill better than by actually aiming at the target... Shooting to the legs is better than trying to aim for the head. (that actually, doesn't make any sense.) Experienced players are just 100x better, because they know that if you actually aim at the target, you don't get it killed. In the meanwhile noobs shoot you (actually aiming you for the head) and you can just run to them and smash them to the face with melee upgrade and be more effective.
It's all down to personal skill. You play the game, you learn how it is done. Why make noobs and vets equal in skill? Are you some kind of communist?
No, I'm just wanting smg fights to make more sense and be more enjoyable. Actually, I'd want the smgs to require more skill than just pure luck. I'd prefer smgs being more accurate and control their effectiviness with the roll-off rather than with accuracy nerf. But that's just me. I'm not wanting it to be more powerful, just more enjoyable and sensible, that's all. Edit: Also, it was just an example. The point was that while somebody might be able to play and he tries to shoot you in the head while you're running at him, he most propably misses, but if instead he decides to aim you a little off or to legs, he has more of a chance to hit you in the head. Makes perfect sense, yes? Summary: Aim for the head = Miss, Aim for the legs, lower torso and the air surrounding the enemy = lucky headshot What I'd prefer is Aim for the head = Hit 'em in the head Now the smgs are like badly allocated chinese copy smgs in comparison to the 2.12 smgs. Yes, they require skill, but in a wrong way. The skill should make more of a difference at the general gameplay. Experienced players are better whether smgs are inaccurate or not. I'm not really facinated by the fact that "skill" in this case means that you've just used to the lack of accuracy in smgs. This reminds me of counter-strike where experienced or skilled player means that you know that smgs are almost completely worthless... Is that skill? Maybe, but is it in a good way? But like I said before: I'm completely fine with smgs even now, because in Empires the gameplay isn't about fragging like in many other games. Still it would be more enjoyable, if skill wasn't about getting used to lack of something, but more of what's that something good for...
That's how I use it. Depending of the situation of course, but mostly 2-3 shot bursts and single shots. Also: To Sirex: I didn't say at any point, that smgs are not powerful enough or I don't get kills with them. I just said, that I'd prefer hitting what I aim for, not what I don't aim for.
