Terror attack in Nice (France)

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Donald Trump, Jul 15, 2016.

  1. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    They did not ban muslim clothing, they banned face covers... i clearly stated the hijab is still entirely legal, and the law is only partially to deal with the problems concerning muslim immigrants... again, face masks of all kind are banned in public.

    I know 'france bans muslim garents' is a cool catchy title for a web article, but this was simply not the atmosphere the law was drafted under... it was partially also to protect muslim women... but was not the only or the main reason.

    I just wanted to make clear it was kept in for the BENEFIT of muslim immigrants rights and integration, not to attack them.

    My dad was not a muslim, but he was religious, i don't think the religion was what made him the man he is but i know it was what enabled him to do what he did for so long. he used religion and religious freedoms as a shield.
     
  2. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    well banning them doesnt seem to have had the desired effect
     
  3. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    It has had exactly the desired effect, to stay on the effect on Muslim communities France probably has the most integrated, western, secular Muslim community in Europe. and this is exactly why ISIS targets France and there probably will never be a terrorist attack in Molenbeek Belgium... The attacks are to drive a wedge into that integration, to polarize people. To make people go 'fuck all muslims, lets kick em out' and to make the muslims go 'they hate us cus they aint us' and get more extreme.

    Secularize the Muslim community, dont let religion fester and corrupt populations... This works and is why France is a main target of Isis, even if france would contribute nothing to the offensive against them in Syria and Iraq it would still be a main target because they are a beacon of 'some' succes.
     
  4. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    that is pretty saddening story i never heard before. no one should have to endure such things ever, my condolences.

    yet what has is to do with anything?
    so is the bible. its the same god in the 3 major religions.

    no objection. yet non-religious ideotologies have caused (and still cause) the same amount of suffering ...

    ... in less time. we really dont need religion for that, we where able to way before that and we will be able to long after we overcame it.
    you attack muslims in general and indirectly help to promote their narrative of "the war against islam". which is a good narrative if you live in regions like gaza to use a drastic example.
    yes its people beind all that. and those people dont do it for religion, but for very real things - power, money, influecne, the usual suspects. its the same kind of people like your father, its the same kind of people like erdogan, its the same kind of people who lied about WMDs in iraq, the same kind of people who promote that refugees are terrorist, criminals and rapeist. they want power, money and influence over others. its not the people speaking of unity, its the people who categorize and generalize people.

    i admit i dont live in france and my only information are news sources i deem credible.

    wtf
     
    Last edited: Jul 20, 2016
  5. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

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    Burkas are bad, but banning them is senseless. It goes against principle to restrict people from wearing what they want.

    People must learn their lesson, not simply told the answer. Only then can they achieve greatness.
     
  6. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    You asked about my education? ive always been pretty open about how i was not very highly educated at first, but never told the story about how that changed.

    Yea, my point exactly... now look at all the filth people do in the name of those books

    But with religion there is no requirement for sanity or logic... basically anything goes... A voice in the sky told you to nuke the usa? lets do it! now try to argument for nuking the USA unprovoked that does not pull from religion... you just wont be able to motivate people for it, they wont believe that in the end someone or something could forgive such and unforgiveable crime from them.

    Is it impossible? no, but religion is by far the easiest and most dangerous ideology pattern that exists, and it simply has not a single shred of benefit to validate its further existance in this world.

    I never attacked muslims in my life, i attacked their ideology. Any idea is fair game on the marketplace of ideas. Same with the christians, same with the jews and same with the hutsi jiju on the mountain people. You are very VERY quick to group me in with people like the KKK or whatever just to suit your ideology because my narrative does not fit yours and honestly time and time again i cringe when i read this stuff, its the same shit i had to endure when i was in uni last year... When i made the argument in uni that most of the refugees still live by a moral code that persecutes gays a girl in uni literally yelled at me to my face we should respect other cultures and beliefs that want to persecute gays because it is not our place to judge and that i was a racist pig for saying that... are you fucking shitting me? Your comments are less extreme, i admit that but what the fuck is happening with our western values of progressiveness.

    Heres an idea, promote secularism so they no longer listen to that filth, im not saying ban islam or burn down mosks and churches and the likes but actively influence their ideology to be secular and moderately centered. In Belgium religious centres get economic support for each visitor, why not add some demands to that support? You wanna spew filth barely within the law of free speech? sure, but no payout... if you want government dough you gotta promote secular values...


    Neither do i, but i live on the border and go there on a monthly basis, it really angered me back then that what was reported inside France and what was reported in worldwide news was just... not compatible. the law never gets quoted or translated because it will be very clear what the intent was, to bring people together not divide them or bully them.

    Not everyone has the luxury to learn lessons like that, you say it like its dating a bad boyfriend but would you say the same about signing in a contract for slavery?

    Would you allow people to sell themselves into life long slavery? or would you protect people from that? knowing some will be exploited and manipulated into a futureless future and mistake they can never get out of again?

    Naturally a piece of clothing is not that extreme, but the intent and purpose of the clothing is to divide up and segregate. That should never be allowed in public, even if voluntarily done. In private you can do whatever gets you off.
     
  7. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    well you yourself posted that survey. if it shows anything its that there isnt muslims in the first place. you generalize and this generalization is the bad part.
    i share a lot of your concerns, yet i see that this generalization is also helpful to the terrorists arguments. as it creates a divide with the previously well integrated muslim communities you spoke of. its their children who experience this shit in school and who later may or may not pose a problem depending on how well their integration in society worked - i mean wheter they got a job or managed to get an education in the first place. its often poorly educated low class housholds. i dont mean that as excuse, but they also bring forth a problematic autochthonous population.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  8. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

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    You don't have to learn lessons by fire, you can learn them from becoming educated and dialectics. You punish the slave owners and traders, not the slaves themselves. You can't restrict people on articles of clothing anyways, it fosters a bad culture where people accept being told by society and their government what to do and what to believe in, much like being oppressed into wearing a burka. As well, culture is no simple thing, be righteous all you want but there are actually many women who wear the cultural clothes as a choice, it's not just men making them do it. Their reason to do so may have oppressive origins, but asking them to remove their headdress is pretty much like asking them to strip all their clothes off, because that's just what they feel, that they got to wear the burka and the hijab. Cultures must undergo evolution not revolution. These things take time.
     
  9. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    Again, the Hijab is still perfectly legal in France and lots of Muslim women wear it, as long as it stays clear of the face its cool. Also its not about punishing the slaves, its about forcing the slaves to participate in day to day life in the world. the Burka is used to shield them from western society and while a safe space can sometimes be very comfortable, it can also mean a gilded cage. Without a Burka they are forced at least partially to participate in society and this has greatly helped integration and a sense of community shared with france for these people.

    Its like outlawing wearing ball gags in public, they can still do it in the privacy of their homes, but people now will actually feel like they can talk to you.

    Also the law also required you to be able to talk at least a bit of one of the big languages in France, so you know... you can talk to your neighbours.

    All of it done to get rid of the ghettoes, and it worked pretty well although not perfectly.
     
  10. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    YOU are the one generalising, this thread you have done nothing but put words in my mouth and attack my credibility based on assumptions and broad stroke generalisations of my character.
    If anything i believe you and people who speak your narrative are the one letting muslim terrorists use their national identity as a weapon and use their religion as a way into the lives of fine upstanding citizens. You try to come off as an intellectual but your racist tirade of about a week ago has shown your true colours... Your attitude and the people that share it with you do NOTHING to help the situation, you literally are the fly on the barn telling the farmer "you know, i would have cleaned up that shit differently..."

    You advocate for lying and practise what muslims would call al-Taqiyya. "so we wont help the terrorists turn muslims here, guise..."

    Its ridiculous, any normal man would see through it and see it for nothing but the same strategies ISIS uses to convince people in their side. You would be giving up the moral high ground for a feel good non confrontational approach that will be doomed to fail. The Romans tried it with the christians and look where they got themselves... Not only that, but its the chosen tactic for people who still want to use that religious gut feeling to instil power on people.
    flasche? more like flashist.

    If you want to beat terrorism, you need to spread secularism and humanism. Secular religion is a thing and it works... we need to domesticate Islam and make it housebroken. First domestically and then abroad... Fight dark age ideology with enlightenment and reason. Why have we forgotten this when it worked so well against the christians in europe?
     
  11. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    how am i lying when i say dont hold those who you yourself called "well integrated muslim communities" accountable by saying stuff like
    hate to spoil it to you, but "well integrated muslims" do believe in islam aswell.
    but totallly, its a perfectly non offensive diction to compair humans to animals - also incredibly well nuanced.
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2016
  12. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    First of all, there are different gradients in every religion, when i say "well integrated muslim communities" i mean the muslims that are on the ideological spectrum closest to the western ideals.

    Yes, they believe in Islam, but to the same degree my brothers are technically Christian. They "socially" believe, never go to church, think that people that talk to god are crazy, and think for themselves. Yet they still call themselves Christian.

    When i talk about Islam however, i am not talking about "well integrated muslim communities" as you make it appear, im not even talking about muslims... im taling about the belief in Islam the religion. and it is a vile piece of shit truly and deserves to be called out for that. It needs to be domesticated, note that this term does not refer to animals, it refers to domesticus meaning "belonging in the society/house" It literally means EXACTLY what i am talking about. Basic islam does not fit in the house today, but one day like the form of Christianity my brothers practice i hope it can be domesticated and eventually filed away as people move away from religion in general.
     
  13. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    and housebrokenus? sry im not so good with latin ...
     
  14. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

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    I want authoritarians to leave.
     
  15. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    We all have a bit of authoritarians in us, and some things just need to be regulated to protect people. like how assault is illegal even if some people like to be assaulted. There is an argument to be made about the 'burka ban' as flashe calls it. But i feel it to be 'for the best', and there are plenty of possibilities well within Islamic right that are still legal.

    Also would like to add that its a bit funny coming from someone from canada. a state that has the suppression of its peoples constitutional rights, basic human rights and the mandatory nationalization of land and property at the whim of the government's majority vote or PM baked into the constitution, and your current PM threatened to use these laws at least twice in his career.

    because its [current year] no doubt.

    Dont get me wrong, im not saying Canadians aren't allowed to criticize me or France or other states because of this, but its still... kinda funny.
     

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