New structure: Outpost.

I tend to get carried away modelling.

So I was thinking recently about the trench warfare empires tends to generate. People place walls and fight from behind them, creating their own cover in the rather exposed plains of empires maps.

But walls are rather limited, they aren't nice to look at and don't work all that well as fighting cover, more like 'cowering in terror' cover.

So I came up with this.





This is an outpost, an NF outpost to be precise. Outposts are new, tough buildings designed to give infantry cover. They have ammo crates inside but no health, this will be explained later.

Basically, these things are big enough to easily take a full squad of players, probably up to about eight. They have a big floorplan, somewhere between a rax and a VF in size, they have about as much health as a rax but are considerably more resistant to many weapons, such as tank cannons, missiles, and artillery. However they are not resistant to infantry weapons and do not have any spawning capacity. They cost about 250 res a pop.

They do however have a unique ability, they project a 'garrison aura'. This is basically a very powerful version of the squad leader aura, and confers the following benefits to all infantry within the confines of the building.

+10% accuracy.
+33% RPG damage.
+30% health.
+40% resistance to all tank explosive weapons.
+70% resistance to all tank MG weapons.
+4hp/sec health regeneration.

The overall effect is obviously that infantry inside one of these are more powerful, much harder to kill with tanks, and able to sustain small amounts of damage indefinitely, similar in fact to the effect garrisoning units in structures has in many RTS games, except this affects players.

So, the idea is that when your infantry squads are a long way from base and you can't drop them a rax, you can instead drop them one of these and they can build it up and hold their position against attacking enemies. The idea is to reduce the number of losses a squad suffers and, assuming the garrison is not too heavily attacked, to keep enemies away from the area.

Another possible use is to replace wallspam. Next time you drop a rax, drop one or two of these near it, and infantry can use them to defend the rax from tanks. These things are after all more pleasant to look at than a million walls and they also have a more structured set of mechanics, they are vulnerable to infantry assault and that can be facilitated by using tanks to keep the defenders pinned inside the central structure. The lack of health crates means the defenders are limited in how fast they can heal.

Also possible is the idea of making a special weapon to destroy these more easily, I'm thiniing a rocket which fits in the APC grenade slot and does lots of damage to these structures. Of course you could just pound them into dust with a lot of tanks, as they don't have spawns and work best when placed in wide open locations (because infantry can't get close as easily) that means the commander can choose between a tougher fort which is hard to reinforce, and a weaker fort which is easily reinforced. In either case there are valid tactics for destroying them, and neither set requires any major coordination, tanks and infantry just have to attack at the same time, which will happen naturally if the tanks are being held up at one of these, so I don't forsee them being too strong.

I would suggest also hard capping these structures, so they aren't spammed. I would suggest three or four per side, so they keep moving with the front lines, or are used sparingly in specific locations around the map. That should prevent the turtle mentality which could spring from these being introduced.

Also, these could be expanded to have other purposes, such as being able to slowly repair vehicles nearby, or refill ammo automatically, these could be researches so the commander can use these as supply bases or something, dropping one in a forward base for defence and general support of units spawning there. These structures create a miniature enclave of 'infantry area' in any map while expanding their ability to fight over range. And that is after all what infantry need to work, the right sort of territory. It also steps towards that whole 'infantry should support tanks' thing people have been blathering on about in the other thread, you need infantry and tanks to get through this thing easily, although huge amounts of tanks could also work, as would nukes because they can kill the infantry very easily. You might make the structure weak to nukes for that matter.

Thanks also to all the people who were there during the various brainstorming sessions which helped develop this idea.

 

so basically... a fortress?


i actually like it...

i can already see tanks driving past the fortress and into the enemy base though, ignoring this building and hiding from it from inside the attacked base itself

also, this could serve as a infantry gate when you put walls next to each side


edit: i think arty pretty much covers the whole "anti-this-building weapon"

 

Well yes that is an issue, you'd need to block tanks enough to slow them down, you just wouldn't have to fight from behind crappy walls. You could however have one of the researches be a plasma minefield which automatically spawns around the outpost and stalls out tanks which try to drive right past, the possibilites for expansion of the building are substantial. It also has a role in area control, one of these with infantry in it can shoot over a very wide area, mortars can kill enemy buildings and RPGs+riflemen can kill enemy tanks and infantry if they try to stay in the area, so killing the outpost or the garrison is neccesary if you want the area it's in, which could hold res nodes.

And yes I suppose it is something of a fortress although fortress for me always suggests a super turret.

I was planning for it to be resistant to arty, arty is the obvious counter to everything, I was kind of hoping to change that. Although I suppose no amount of resistance will stop a sustained arty barrage.

 

I like it
Are the floors thin enough so if infantry dies inside they can be revived?

 

I think so, if not I can just scale the whole thing outward a bit. They're about twice as wide as a normal infantryman I think, although I'm not sure I can do anything about what happens if they die too close to a wall.

 

my commentary on the model:

needs more barbed wire (personal opinion, nf battlements = barbed wire)

also add one of those deep foundations, so on hilly maps you cannot get under the prop

a NF flag signaling its military importance would also be nice

will you release models to the public like this if they don't get implemented? i like some parts of it really much, also worthy to put in a map etc

 

It does have foundations, the thing sits about halfway up the sandbags, I can adjust the foundation as neccesary.

Wire needs lots of polies to look good.

NF flag I should be able to do however.

I'll probably be USING the models in maps if they don't get implemented, so you'll get them when the map is released.

 

Is there any chance to get some in game shots? Like I said, I'm diggin it ;p

 

I'll compile it and get you a picture of it on a map, wait maybe half an hour.

 

No it doesn't.

It encourages people to push into enemy territory and drop one of these to control it. It's like a ninja rax except less overpowered, and for whole teams of infantry to use. If your infantry get into enemy territory you can drop one of these and they can take that territory from the enemy, or at least capture more land for you, which is more than infantry can normally do.

All of the thinking behind this is based around the offensive use of structures to support infantry. Currently I drop armories for my infantry in the field and raxes to reinforce them. These would replace the armories and make the raxes less neccesary. They're designed to allow infantry to hold territory, especially territory behind the lines, which is why it's omnidirectional and designed to work best when you place it in the middle of a field.

There would be no point dropping one on the defensive because it doesn't do anything unless people are in it, and you'd waste your hard cap.

I said it would be more resistant to most weapons, which means it takes less damage from them, and that means engineers don't have to repair very much.

If a full squad of engies is repairing it they're easy prey for a few riflemen or grenades, no spawn remember, so no reinforcements to meat shield the engies.

 

infantry is already the counter to this, so a squad of infantry will easily be countered by a hand full of riflemen storming in and taking the building mano o mano

 

I think it's quite alright to have a bunker, due to the fact that once in a while I make my own little wall bunker which lasts a bit, but gets mowed down when bigger tanks with nukes come along.

I'd take away the increase in health, but I like the health regeneration.
That hole in the middle, would it have a ladder leading upwards so perhaps a scout or a grenadier can have a clearer shot at tanks?

 

I have to stress again these would not be as useful for defence as they would be for offence.

Don't think of them as bunkers, think of them as the roof rax building on cyclopean. Somewhere infantry can hold out against tanks and control territory from, a foothold in enemy territory.

I don't know what I'm going to do with the hole, I was planning to roof it over because adding roof access in the middle is kind of hard, I'd need to add a spiral staircase and the middle roof hole isn't really wide enough for that.

The health increase is specific, unlike an armor buff a health buff would be limited by the regeneration, so it makes the defenders slightly tougher against infantry but that toughness reduces with sustained use.

 

1: I would prefer an armoury just because of the health pack.
2: Walls don't cost anything for engineers and can be placed anywhere near enemy lines.
3: Revives are impossible in the bunker because bodies fall through the floor making walls preferable.
4: The cover on top doesn't look very nf. Rest looks great.
5: The amount of health that this has would affect the build time. Too low and it dies too easily, too high and it cant be built with enemies nearby.
6: If the other team manages to kill everyone inside it seems a bit odd that they don't get any bonuses, but "fuck realism".
7: Seems a little big and couldn't be placed on any type of hill, limiting where it can be placed.
8:A position that is too defendable could result in more stalemates.
9:Some kind of defendable position that would somewhat solidify a factions hold on an area could be good.
10f there are researches for this structure... where would they go? Spread out or under 1 tree? Would it be truely detrimental if the "aura" had to be researched? What about medcrates?
11:How would the +30% health work? If someone was at 15 then stepped out would they die?
12: Steps up so that infantry inside could shoot over the sandbags would be nice (I may just be not getting the scale of this thing).
13:Could it be made so that this whole thing requires research. If so we could add a whole new tree for buildings. Turrets could go there and this thing. Hell for 2-3k or so res i wouldn't be against allowing spawns in this thing.
14:No real place for HMGs.
15:Some form of second level would be nice.
16.From the "Suggestion thread guidelines - Read this first!"

17.Keep up the good work with modeling, but more pictures and scale photos would be better right away when you put something up.

 

what about making it capturable once built, like if the BE infantry forces capture the building by foot and claim it the flag you said "could" be added changes to BE and also the buffs go to BE

if so we should need 4 versions, (2 buildings, but each building has a nf flag version and a be flag version)

NF built NF owned,
NF built BE owned
BE built BE owned
BE built NF owned

this would enable the "offensive nature" of the building more, since you don't want to put this next to your base and then it gets captured by a party bus apc and the guys using it as stakeout next to your base...


edit, if anyone wants to trow the "no bunker said the sticky" card

we already have the model, might as well just try it out
if the devs would put a few hours into coding the new building and testing it on a private server it might work

 

1. That's supposed to be a limitation.
2. I never said it would make walls obsolete, walls still have a place, this also has a place.
3. The interior of the structure is ground level, it has no floor in the middle and the walls aren't very high off the ground, the outer sandbags have quick access to the sheltered middle area and players are much harder to kill in this structure so I'm sure they can retreat if injured.
4. It's corrugated steel with camo netting over it set between steel trusses, looks fine to me.
5. I know, it's supposed to be built by several infantry and raxes go up plenty fast with several infantry.
7.Yeah, I did say several times that it works best when you place it in the open.
8. It isn't too defendable, if all else fails you can just mulch it with arty or lots of tanks, it's just easier if you use a mix of units which as I said, should naturally occur wherever tanks get impeded.
9. That is sort of the entire idea behind this thing.
10. Well that would depend on what they were, I'd endevour to add them into exisiting research items so the thing gets upgraded as you go, you can research health boxes if you want but that would upset the balance.
11. Percentage based, you gain 30% health when you enter, lose 30% health when you leave, whatever your current health is. No instadeath.
12.There are steps up, or ramps up in any case.
13. Possibly, but I don't see the need at the moment.
14. I can't think of anywhere to put them that isn't stupid, besides they only work at close range so what would be the point?
15. That falls under the category of 'sniper tower' then doesn't it?
16. It isn't a bunker, it's not supposed to be used defensively or be an impenetrable doom fortress. It's designed to compliment the existing, very common and quite entertaining tactic of dropping raxes and armories for your infantry as they advance, except rolled into one structure with additional fun mechanics associated with it. Think of it as being like walls. You can build loads of them round your base but it doesn't help, but they do work in chokepoints and to protect forward raxes. This is a similar thing.
17. Scale seems obvious to me but I'll get one.

Might be possible with some big flag models, I mean big blue and red banners should be obvious from a distance, but we'd have to see.

 

What part of 'it's fucking useless as a turtling building' do you not understand? If people try to turtle they're idiots, this doesn't make it any more viable. People don't drop walls, millions of turrets, and raxes around their base, why would they drop these?

Raxes are shit to fight from compared to these, you can drop a rax with one of these and it will be better than just a rax, or you can drop two of these at the start and maybe capture two places as opposed to just one because you spent all the money on a rax? Or you can drop one of these when you don't want to risk 400 res on a rax, like if a squad is pinned somewhere and you just need them to delay the enemy for as long as possible. You can drop two across a big defensive line, maybe across one of the wider parts of canyon, making more places viable choke points.

Nobody says you have to drop these all the time, the point is there are situations where something like this would be useful and the thing is inherently fun to use for the infantry inside. It has a use and is fun, therefore it postively contributes to the game.