I'll admit that I'm fairly new to Empires, but after a few days of pretty frequent playing I've got to say I've developed some opinions that I feel are solidly based. A lot of the weapons in Empires just don't make much sense, and IMO need some real tweaking. Most notably are...well, pretty much everything the Grenadier class carries. Since it seems the most flawed, I'll start with it. The Mortar - It hardly acts as a mortar should. Empires does a pretty good job of having some wide open spaces on most maps, so why is the mortar so incredibly short-ranged? So far I've been killed a handfull of times by mortars, and almost all of them were within 10 meters of the guy using it. At longer ranges, the mortar just isn't a serious threat to infantry or vehicles unless the target is off having a combat jack. The splash radius is pathetic for any sort of indirect fire weapon, as is the total damage it does. Mortars aren't precision weapons, they aren't meant to hit a target in the face. The entire idea is that you lob a large explosive round near the target, and the explosion takes out everything in the area. Now, maybe some of you see balance problems with large splash radius and high damage. I agree, and the obvious counter to this is by treating the mortar as (once again) it's real-life counterpart: Require that the user be crouched, and require that it takes a couple seconds to deploy and undeploy it. If you manage to catch a grenadier using his mortar and you're reasonably close to him, he shouldn't stand a chance. The Pistol - Pistols are not long-range weapons. The fact that the pistol can effectively outrange a mortar is ludicrous, but that's precisely the case in this mod. Pistols should be a lot less accurate at long range. The RPG - I don't really know what to say here. This seems like the tricky one for the grenadier, because I really suspect it's weak as part of trying to balance things. I'd suggest upping the damage substantially, but severely restricting the number of rounds a grenadier can carry for it. Another idea would be to remove guidance. At any rate, if a round hits, it shouldn't be as easily shrugged off as they currently are. If the RPG and mortar were both changed, it might become valid to allow the grenadier to carry only one or the other. Yes, I know that according to the game they're both the same weapon, but that doesn't really make a ton of sense anyhow. If the grenadier were only allowed to carry one, I would suggest a light rifle, probably a semi-auto, as the primary weapon. Splitting the two makes a good deal of sense to me, since the mortar would be best used in friendly territory to provide indirect fire with feedback from the team or the existing ability (which would be awesome with mortars acting as they should). On a more offensive role, the RPG would be very handy for assaulting hard targets or providing AT capability to a team. Likewise, I believe that the Grenadier should be able to choose either mines or sticky bombs (once again, one defensive, the other offensive). Engineer equipment: I really don't see any problem with the engineer's kit, short of the pistol thing mentioned earlier. They're a pretty good class and seem to do support well enough. Maybe some accuracy tweaks on the SMG's. Rifleman equipment: Seems well enough suited to what it is used for. Sticky bombs seem a poor placement, as if they were added to make the class effective against everything. I'd suggest replacing with smoke or incendiary grenades, and giving stickies to the Grenadier. Scout equipment: The Sniper Rifle - Evidently this is slated to be removed. Personally, I feel that is a bad call. The game needs some sort of scoped rifle for longer-range work. I'd suggest changing it to be a semi-auto to fill more of a DMR role, and FFS, please change the 'default' loadout pick to Engineer or Rifleman. New players going "Uh, okay." and ending up as a scout with a precision rifle just complicates things, because chances are they won't know how to use it effectively, and will just run off to sit on a hilltop and impotently pop shots at infantry, which does no good to the team. IMO, the scout should have the following weapon options: A shotgun, a SMG (possibly able to be suppressed), and the DMR. This would allow scouts to be effective ambush units, close-range recon units, and long-range recon, but still not infringe on the rifleman's role too much. There are a few other general notes on gameplay I'd like to make, as well. IMO, infantry move too fast, lending more to a twitch-based game than a tactical one. As a result, squad cohesion and unit tactics seem to suffer. This also bleeds over quite heavily into the strategic side of things, and I feel that more often than not the commander just ends up being there to place structures instead of develop and guide a real battle plan.
This is all pretty good, don't argue to keep the scout rifle if you want to stay on my good side [and you are at the moment, I'm starting to like you] the RPG needs a buff, you say it doesn't make sense to make Mortars and RPGs work in the same weapon? Why? It makes it a hell of a lot easier to transport them and makes sense in every way. The game doesn't need a scoped rifle [IE SNIPER RIFLE] and the default loadout has been changed significantly in 2.2, don't worry. The scout is probably getting a shotgun, but it will either be an SMG or a shotgun, along with a pistol. Long range recon can be done by anyone, I don't even see how you can help a team with long range recon. Infantry move fine, hell, I think they need to do bootcamp again because they're fucking out of shape. Player speed isn't the problem with teamwork, it's just that people are thick, the commander shapes the battle by his research more than his decisions. Thank you for giving me a nicely laid out, intelligent post. You seem like a reasonably intelligent newcomer.
Empty, I was arguing for more of a DMR-style weapon than a sniper rifle. A semi-auto weapon that allows a member of an infantry squad to accurately pop heads at ranges beyond what a standard rifleman can reliably engage. Basically, the Empires equivalent of an M1A or SVD. I won't press the point, though. However, if the hillside lurker scouts are an issue, I'd like to humbly ask that the binocs be looked at very hard, since they don't really fit in with the close-quarters style that the scout seems to be moving toward. In addition, I'd like to ask for slightly magnified iron sights as a secondary feature to some of the weapons lacking one to aid in engaging targets in the distance. I suppose when you get right down to it, the mortar and RPG in game can be one package -- they're really just smoothbore tubes with a few extras, at heart. I suppose mortar functionality could be added to the tube with the right extras, and the physical limitations explained away by "Advanced alloys" that are strong and light enough to make it a workable combo. In the end, you can work it whatever way best suits how you want to set the class up. Oh, another note regarding mortars. While the weapon model is nice and all, it tends to get in the way of aiming the longer shots as-is. Especially the NF tube.
it looks like a mortar, shoots like a mortar and is handled as a mortar it's a mortar, take it from me if you trust me... scout rifle is out, and yo are going to like it once you see the replacer in action (i haven't ether, but i know i will!) everything else has "some" logic to it i guess, or wait a minute... ... ... ... ... ... NO please, no please... please if there is a god after all...
Stickies should be removed full stop, with actually useful RPGs, they aren't necessary. I really hope the binocs get changed for the better, they're awesome, they really are, they're good for grabbing intel, maybe we should let them see enemy health if you zoom in on them, vehicle structure and infantry, so you can relay information to teammates before an assault, to prioritize targets. Also, go into how you'd like an incendiry to work, I'm curious.
its okay if we get decent rocket propelled grenades in return, a fair trade is a fair trade why not let them see everything? point at a refinery, you see the enemy resources, point at a comm vehicle you see who is inside, its armor, weapons etc in other words, make it something not only cool but useful too
Awesome post, but personally, empires is pretty balanced as it is. empires isn't about realism, its about fun, and you will have ALOT of fun taking out 2 people with a mortar 5 feet ahead of you. you will have alot of fun as an engineer, running around with an smg2 spray a clip everywere, take out your pistol for a finishing shot, or just get into a pistol melee fight with someone. The RPG is more of an early game weapon/spam low healthed buildings weapon, long ranging a tank with an RPG is just plain dumb. What I like about grenadier, is that pistol1 is probably the best weapon for it. shotty pistol will do crapall for grenadiers on MOST maps. (emp_canyon, dustorm, emp_mvalley, the list goes on) And yes I spelled duststorm wrong, Im kindof burnt. Now, what I see you didn't focus on was the fact that roflmen do the snipers job and the grenadiers. EXCELSIOUR!
one thing about grens i would agree with is the crouch option, it should have a set-up time for firing the mortar, instead of the little millisecond pressing of the shift key to crouch and fire a mortar, so that it looks like the guy is still standing when he shoots it at you, is kind of retarded i like stickies on a rifleman, not only does being able to throw them actually make running after a tank balanced, you can also compete for distance, i think the biggest complaint against me is for throwing stickies up to 20 feet, but if they absolutely have to be changed, they should be made into a contact-required demolition object, i.e. not thrown. Stickies are a fun idea, and always will be, every since I saw Saving Private Ryan, and since they were invented in WW2(if thats when they were originally) ive also noticed an odd thing that seems like an unexpected exploit to me, but it may not be, but some grenadiers have started quick-switching after firing their rpg/mortar to their rpg/mortar and getting off additional attacks in the space of less then a second, it leaves them having to reload both weapons, but most ive seen have reserved its tactical use to finish, or attempt to finish, someone off, i think ive survived all 3 attempts ive witnessed by careful turning of my tank, its not exactly easy to master the accuracy im sure
I bet 10 DOLLAAA that i can hit everything in range of the mortar close enough to hurt it and that what the mortar should do, forcing the enemy to keep their heads down. In empires 2.12 there is no need for a scoped rifle cause you can headshoot everything that has one with the assault rifles. If i play rifleman I never have a problem with grenadiers if I spot them early enough. If not im dead but thats how a fps works. I srsly dont like the attitude some people have here. Trying to make other people believe that the mortar is a cheap weapon that kills to easy, every veteran will tell you that it is the hardes weapon to master and if someone can kill you with his mortar at the first shot he would kill you with every other weapon of the game too
I was going to write that everybody thinks that after a couple of days and changes their opinion after three months, but you actually rise a lot of good points beyond the grasp of the average Emp_Recruit. Oh well, we'll see us in three months. - The mortar isn't a long range weapon, that's what arty is for. - I completely agree with you on the pistol. In the next version all infantry weapons will be rebalanced and this issue will be addressed - As for the RPG, I agree that it doesn't do much damge, but removing guidance and reducing the number of rounds carried would make the RPG completely useless at anything but point blank range. - Engineer: what do you mean by accuracy tweak? More accuracy? The engineer is already very strong against infantry, even riflemen. Because of this a lot of people complain that the engi is overpowered. - Rifleman: The stickys were added in 2.0 testing specifically to give the rifleman a chance against tanks. - Scout No it doesn't. Default class will be changed to Engineer in the next version. Exactly. Unfortunately it's not only newbies who do that. There really are people who think that they help their team more by sitting on a hilltop and shooting everybody that comes out of a barracks, than by actually destroying the barracks. This is exactly contrary to what Empires is supposed to be, therefore the Scout Rifle must go. For more info on scouts I'd like to direct you to the half a million scout threads. That post contains more truth than the rest of the thread combined. Changing the mortar because "it doesn't act as a mortar should"? So what? To the OP: you probably don't know, but the motto of Empires is "Fuck Realism".
Has there been any improvements in sticky hit detection? Several times it simply flew through the tank, leaving me disappointed when I realize that my giant suicide rush didn't get the tank kill I wanted.
I liked what you wrote until you wrote scout rifle. Then I understood you was just looking for errors to keep another thing. EDIT: Light Tanks? Their hitbox doesn't cover their wheels.. =/
are you joking? do you even know how a mortar works? for a start, mortars arn't held in your arms, they're deployed on the ground. unlike grenade launchers and the empires mowtar. to extend that point: mortars are not mobile objects you can use and reload while sidestraffing and pausing only for a second, unlike the empires mowtar. to fire a mortar, you drop the shell into the chamber, it hits the bottom and instantly detonates then flies out the top. in a grenade launcher the grenade sits in the chamber until the trigger is pulled, similar to the empires mowtar. gameplay wise, it also functions as a grenade launcher: best at short ranges and with low arcs. the grenades also need to almost directly impact the target to do damage, so just launching mortars into a hotly contested enemy area as real mortars are used, as support fire instead of direct fire, doesn't work. to quote wikipedia: "Mortar (weapon) fires shells at a much lower velocity and higher ballistic arc than other ordnance;" - the empires mowtar never fires at the higher arc. the empires mowtar is a grenade launcher. here is a picture of one which runs by the exact same principles as the empires mowtar: http://www.combat.ws/S4/MILTERMS/IMAGES/M79PUMP.JPG
Empty, I didn't have a firm concept in mind, it was just a loose suggestion for something that seemed a little more fitting IMO. Incendiary grenades have been done many different ways, and I don't have anything revolutionary to offer. I guess the best sort IMO would be one that exploded and did an area burn for X seconds, igniting anyone that happened to run into that area. That would allow the rifleman a short term area denial weapon which might be very handy for maneuvering purposes. I'm no coder, so I'm not sure how computationally expensive that would be. To everyone else, re: the scout and rifle. Sorry for touching on that sore spot. The scoped rifles and binocs gave me the impression that the scout was supposed to work as the 'ranged' class, but it sounds like Empires was not really meant to have that role. Given this information, the omission of the scoped rifle makes sense. I would also suggest removing the binocs as they are and replacing them with a closer-range, rapidly deployed alternative -- some sort of beacon grenade or marker smoke grenade with the same functionality. If binocs are desired, perhaps give them to every class (without the artillery functionality) so that no one class looks like it should be doing things from afar. Regarding the mortar once again: As others have said, the mortar in Empires acts more like a grenade launcher. The range and damage radius both back this up. However, I see the mortar get employed all too frequently at ranges at which a grenade launcher wouldn't be considered -- even the smaller grenades would be considered far too hazardous at 10 meters outdoors to use. Regarding RPG's (theotherjms): Removing guidance was just an option I tossed out in case they became viewed as "too powerful". Alternatively, giving the rockets a higher velocity but lack of guidance would work as well. If beefing up RPG's becomes a problem with them being used too effectively on buildings in the early game, scaling down damage vs. buildings would make sense -- RPG's today don't rely on sheer explosive strength, but kill armor (usually) by doing something like creating a molten stream of metal that penetrates and makes the confined space of the crew compartment a death chamber. Buildings tend to be more wide-open, so you could logically say that the building itself would be less damaged by RPG hits. Just an idea.
AFAIK the coders are working on a system for different building/vehicle/infantry damage values, so I really hope they make the RPG a highly effective AT weapon.
