Make heavy tanks equivalent to upgunned mediums.

They already did this when balancing for 2.0, but you are right imo. By further decreasing the weight limit or by changing the weight of armor this problem can be solved. I prefer increasing the weight of armor plates above reducing total weight, cause i'd still like to be able to put max of weapons on a chassis (with 1 plate or armor on each side).

3 weapons + heavy armor should only allow for 8 armor plates max. A heavy with dual HE cannons + bio MG + 2 plates of reactive armor at each side is still extremely effective against both other tanks and infantry. But at least when grens work together they can take it out. Heavies with 2 weapons and normal armor should not be able to have more than 4 plates on each side.

6 sides of armor should only be reached when the heavy has 1 small weapon and the lightest armor.

Actually no sandbag is right, 6 plates of armor on each side should not be reached at all, ever. Not even without any weapons installed on it.

On a side note, i think it's time to give the engines some (noticeable) weight differences as well.

 

I dunno about that...I reckon' a heavy should be able to field HE and UML with 6 plates of armour tbh...but, if you want anything more than that, you should have to take armour off.

 

Totally disagree on this one.

I even edited it and added this:

24 plates is a LOT. Even dubee can't take a skilled heavy tank driver with 24 plates down.
Boom! 1 plate down, 23 to go...
Boom! 1 plate down, 22 to go...

5 minutes later ...
Boom! 1 plate down, 2 to go .... oh c'mon don't run away for repairs

If you want 6 plates, put them on one or two sides only, and maybe 1 or 2 on the other sides. Together with 1 strong weapon or 2 medium weapons you still have a killing machine if you succeed in facing towards the enemy with your strong sides.

 

Yeah...I did some quick testing (also a great way to test how vehicles work on the 2.2 ) and I ended up finding at least one thing out:

BE Med - 3 plates reflec with UML, ER & FIssion Engine = 596 res
BE Heavy - 5,5,5,6 plates reflec with UML, ER & Fission Engine = 953 res
{they're both max weight limits}

Well...probably alot of you guys know this kind of stuff already, but that basically told me that there's no way that heavies need to cost more. As it is they're 350 res more than meds on a regular loadout and that's more than half the price of a med. We don't want a heavy to cost 2 mediums or mores worth.

The heavy was also incredibly fast with fission...although that coulda been the server, it really speaks to me that heavies have a lot more speed crippling to take. It definately wasn't as slow-ass as it should be :p

 

erm, that heavy has at least 2 more plates of armour on each side, and it's much harder to kill than the med. i say a heavy costing as much as 2 meds isn't too much

and yeah, heavys can be fast,i fission :p

 

Yeah I suppose...wasn't thinking too straight when I made two vehicles without maximum armour on...

...what the hell was I thinking?

 

But by increasing the weight of armor the problem will remain the same, If a heavie can have 2x rails +3 plates of armor on each side a medium can have 1x HE cannon +1 plate of armor on each side... maby 2 on one or two sides... If you want to fix this with total weight you have to decrease max weight on the heavy...

 

It is true that a Heavy tank is what the game says it is... in the game! But when someone says Heavy tank in my mind I see a monstermachine with extreme armor and big guns! I don't think of a tank with low armor and big guns because thats not what a heavy tank was in reality (WWII-Present time) Im just saying that to me it makes no sense making a heavytank have the same amount of armor as a Medium without changing the name!

This is why I think a Heavy Tank has a lot of armor and big guns btw: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heavy_tank#Heavy_tank

 

If the empires definition of heavy tank was changed, so would your expectations.

And I did say it should have slightly more armor than a medium.

 

You're saying that the heavy would still be able to defeat mediums? I see no problem with that.

How it is now:
1) Only heavies can take out heavies
2) Lt's, mediums, heavies, grenadiers, mines, turrets AND stickies can take out mediums

How it would be:
1) Because the medium tank will have less armor too, the heavy will still be stronger than any other tank like you said (as it should be).
2) But because of less armor (or less weapons) at least other units can do some damage as well. Grenadiers might actually be able to help mediums to defeat a heavy. Turrets would finally slow them down (they just drive past them as it now). Mines could do enough damage to destroy it or damage it enough so that a few grenadiers could finish it of. Rifleman stickies would finally be a real danger to them.

Of course it's all about balancing. I'm not saying do not lower max weight of the heavy. But if it really is a problem you could also make armor more expensive and increase the max weight of LT's and mediums so they can still have decent armor. It would have the same effect.
I just don't think it is necesary.

 

The heavy tank is heavy because it can carry nukes and/or railguns, it shouldn't have a ridiculous amount of armour.

 

I agree that reducing the max weight a heavy tank can carry would be the best solution. If people are only able to put 6 plates on one side rather than every side, they are forced to choose between lots of heavy weapons or more armour. If tanks are forced to favour one side it means they have to roll out with at least one weak side, meaning grens with armour detection would be more useful, and teamplay would benefit because people would have to work together to be able to hit a tank on its weakside.

Basically, if a tank is loaded up with lots of powerful guns it should have to carry less armour than it does currently. If it wants to roll out with 6 plates on each side and be almost unkillable it should be forced to carry a small amount of weapons.

Making RPG upgrades stronger and/or making the upgrade come free when the comm researches missiles rather than having it as a seperate research would also help a lot.

I think a lot more focus could be put on vehicle customization, with different kinds of tanks with different strengths and weaknesses being deployed. Instead of "who can roll out the biggest strongest tanks the fastest" as it is currently, it should be "who can most effectively work as a team to use the different technology they have available".

What I mean is there should be a lot more tactics involved, like using strongly armored tanks to take hits for your big guns which have low armour, or distracting the enemy with a few strong but not very powerful tanks while your fast strikeforce flanks them. At the moment it is a simple and predictable case of "lets all deploy lots of tanks with our best weapons and full armour and knock shit out of each other until one team is overrun".

 

I agree that more tactics is neeed in this game, BUT! The current maps leave no or limited abillety to flank... besides the maps are too small for any flanking that isn't a comm rush since the enemy quickly can move some of their tanks too face the new attackers. Also these very basic strategies with you attack here and keep em buisy while we go here and kick their asses may seem very simple will be quite a challange to make work due to people disobeying orders and such.

 

Once aircrafts comes out, everything will have to be revised...

Bombers and Fighters would kill every non-anti air weaponry.

 

That will be a while though. Right now the devs are trying to focus on giving empires everything it needs to be a great game in it's current form, so they can have a looong time to work on aircraft.

 

Aircraft will help in the fight vs heavys BUT it still wont fix the fact they can beat all other ground units with ease. But aircraft will also be able to kill Meds as well so they r not the overall answer. I think that meds and heavys need a perpose and a special.

Heavys = Heavy weapons platform, Slow, Slighly Heavyer armour than meds, Designed for defence or a slow push forward, Expensive.

Meds = Main Attack Tank, Good speed, Backbone of an army.

 

For balancing/gameplay just ignore aircraft. Pretend they will never come when making suggestions.

When (if) they do come one day, ... well we'll see then won't we

 

Void aircraft, they aren't coming out for a while... and I'm sure they will be balanced by then

Guys, it isn't supposed to be easysauce to kill an heavy tank. It takes 4 minutes to get to heavies from mediums and 1500+ res to research them. It costs a shitload of bricks and it takes time to research the weapons for it.

A well suited medium or two will easily take them out, with half-witted drivers and a good amount of teamwork/armor detection.

Don't think of Empires as a giant rock-paper-scissors game where everything is equal. Think of it as a "if no refinery no research - other team gets heavies - teamwork beats heavies)

If you are complaining about how little resources your team has so that by that time they have heavies you only have superlights, blame the inability of your team to hold refs or skill stacks, not the balance of the game itself.

It's meant to be a last-phase vehicle, right between the "superlights + meds" and "Nukes/HE arty"

 

The main problem is not the difference between heavies and mediums, but that heavies can ignore nearly everything the game has to offer.

- Build 8 lvl3 ML turrets in a row. Have an enemy heavy go to a spot where ALL 8 can shoot at him. Tell him to try and take out all of them. He can take out 1 before he lost one side or armor, he takes out 2 others while losing another side or armor, again he takes out 2 others while losing side 3, and then he destroys the last 3 before losing side 4.

Fun gameplay eh?

- Try using mines to stop some heavies. At best you can damage them enough so they repair themselves (in 5 seconds). Probably more than 60 % of heavies that get destroyed by mines is because they get flipped.

- Try to kill one with stickies. He has heavy weapons, often ideal for killing infantry, and i've seen heavies surviving 5 stickies without smoking.

- Try to use rpg/mortar to take down a heavy. The driver knows he's not in any danger and can just come towards you to crush you, without having to be afraid of mines or a squad of grenadiers trying to ambush him. They're harmless after all.

Right now driving a heavy doesn't require skill as much as other vehicles do. Noobs often grab one, drive towards the enemy base, ignore a turret farm, kill some grenadiers in the meantime, and go target the enemy cv. The only thing stopping them are walls and other vehicles.



imo 3 grenadiers should be able to stop a heavy (note the word stop, not destroy). Their presence should make a heavy driver think "damnit, i'm gonna wait for some rifleman to help me take those anti vehicle units down".

I'm not saying make heavy < 3 grens, but 3 grens should be able to deal enough damage to make the driver think about the risk of killing them. He will still be pretty sure his one tank can take out 3 anti tank units, but it will cost him a lot of armor and if a medium happens to come around some corner to engage him, he will not be able to defeat him with all this damage.

And if 3 grenadiers can slow them down, i think 4 or maximum 5 should be enough to destroy a heavy. As it is now 4 grenadiers taking cover behind a wall with a few ml turrets before it, mines in the entrances and an armory nearby stand no chance against a heavy. If it takes 4 to destroy a heavy, it takes already 12 to destroy 3 heavies. 12 grenadiers working together is still a lot less likely then 3 heavies attacking.

As it is now, if infantry do manage to destroy a heavy, it is not because they had a decent chance against it, but because the heavy driver had gotten used to the idea of being 'invincible', and did not have bio or didn't pay attention to his heat with the intention of getting away if necessary cause he was under the impression that nothing can kill him. A skilled heavy driver will !NEVER! lose his tank to infantry, their anti vehicle weapons or turrets, no matter how much there are. If a skilled heavy driver loses his tank, it's because the enemy had either more tanks, or because other drivers were blocking his escape path or even preventing him to turn.

Many times have i seen both grenadiers and rifleman killing infantry, while no one engaged the heavies. Which is completely logical cause the grens might be able to kill some infantry, but if they decide to engage a heavy they will get 3 shots, take down 2 layers of armor out of say 20 total (5 each side), after which the driver will take him down cause he doesn't want vermin to scratch the paint of his armor.I've been in the same situation.

Voila, i've said exactly how i experience heavies

Summary:
- Do something so heavies have less armor
- Do something so meds have a little less armor as well cause the heavy should still dominate the mediums

or

- make grenadiers a lot more effective against heavies (and a small increase against mediums to make it absolutaly perfect)

 

on cyclopean yesterday we lost but managed to get some coolant/he/reflective heavys.
It needed 5 he meds and a couble of ml's to force me to retreat.
Oh the hited me all time, its just that there damage wasnt
such a threat to bother.
Oh and the dual he cannon ate meds like cookies.
Yes heavys should be dangerous and i think the enemy had regen armor
but 5 seconds to kill a med tank??? I dont think thats balanced