WARNING All values are just place holders. They're just here to represent the idea. 2 posts below there is an explanation This was stuck in my head last night, so I decided to write it all out. Its rather self explanatory, and I reached the char limit, so I'm not really going to explain. I'll give clarification if you ask for it. Code: Chemistry Physics | Biology \ / / \ Electrical | Mechanical Engineering Chemical Weapons Tier 1 Chemical Engine Tier 1 | Chemical Armour Tier 1 \ / Chemistry | Chemistry Tier 1 Package Infantry | Engineering / \ Chassis Buildings Mk 2 mediums(+weight limit, hull health) | Arty Mk2(+weight limit, hull health) Mediums / Mk2 lights | Arty \ / Chassis | Heavy | Heavy Mk2(+weight limit, hull health) Walls Turrets Tier 1 | General Buildings Tier 1 \ / Buildings | Buildings Tier 1 Package Code: Weapons Using drags awesome scripts to illustrate the point http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=9760 [COLOR="Gray"][SIZE="1"](though I know some of these weapons have been removed or moved, remember this is just a representation of how it would work)[/SIZE][/COLOR] Rather then go through all the trees, I've just chosen 2 to illustrate the point specific tree boosts Cost Time chem phys tier 1 150 30 Explosive Cannon, Explosive ML, Explosive MG Improved Ranged Cannnon, Fast ML, ICG tier 2 300 60 Cooled Cannon, Cooled ML, Improved GL Sabot Cannon, RGL, .50 Cal medium tier 3 450 90 Phosphor Cannon, Scatter ML, HEMG, Explosive Arty Cannon URC, UFML, DUMG, Ranged Arty tier 4 600 120 HE Cannon, UML, UGL, HE Arty, Swarm ML .50 Cal Heavy, USC, Plasma Bomb Arty, DU Cannon tier 5 750 150 Seige Cannon, Liquid Nitrogen Cooled Cannon, AML, HIT, AHE Arty AFML, Fission ML, Fission Cannon, DUHMG Code: Armour specific tree boosts Cost Time resists chem bio elec* mech phys tier 1 150 30 -40% +2.5 wieght +40% cost Regen effect - 40% -5 weight +5% resists Cost -40% Weight + 5 Angle modifier -40% tier 2 300 60 -20% +1.25 weight +20% cost Regen effect - 20% -2.5weight +10% resists Cost -20% weight + 2.5 Angle modifier -20% tier 3 450 90 = = = = = = tier 4 600 120 +25% -1.25 weight -25% cost Regen effect + 25+ +25% resists weight - 2.5 Angle modifier +25% tier 5 750 150 +50% -2.5 weight -50% cost Regen effect + 50% +50% resists weight - 5 Angle modifier +50% The specific modifier is the % of the regular. tier 2 reactive is 100%*.8+(.10*100)=90% of regular instead of 80%. Example: Mechanical teir 1: resists 60% weight 15 cost 22.8 Total time 30 Total cost 150 Mechanical teir 2: resists 80% weight 12.5 cost 30.4 Total time 90 total cost 450 Mechanical teir 3: resists 100% weight 10 cost 38 Total time 180 Total cost 900 Mechanical teir 4: resists 125% weight 7.5 cost 38 Total time 300 Total cost 1500 Mechanical teir 5: Resists 150% weight 5 cost 38 Total time 450 Total cost 2250 Code: engines specific tree boosts Cost Time All stats chem bio elec* mech phys tier 1 150 30 -40% +5% cooling Speed while overheated -80% Max Speed + 5% All stats +5% Acceleration +6% tier 2 300 60 -20% +10% cooling Speed while overheated -40% Max Speed +10% All stats +10% Acceleration +10% tier 3 450 90 = = = = = = tier 4 600 120 +25% +25% cooling Overheated time - 25% Max Speed +25% All stats +15% Acceleration +25% tier 5 750 150 +50% +50% cooling Overheated time - 50% Max Speed +50% All stats +20% Acceleration +50% Example: Electrical tier 1 : Max speed 65% acceleration 60% cooling 60% torque 60% Total time 30 Total cost 150 Electrical teir 3 : Max speed 100% acceleration 100% cooling 100% Torque 100% Total time 180 Total cost 900 Electrical tier 5 : Max speed 200% acceleration 150% cooling 150% torque 150% Total time 450 Total cost 2250 Code: Infantry Unlike Vehicle % infantry % combine. Cost Time Generic Scout Engi Gren Rifleman tier 1 100 20 Reload speed +10% Speed/Stamina regen +10% Tool regen/Decon speed +10% Rpg damage/Mowtar radius + 10% Armour + 10% tier 2 200 40 Reload speed +15% Speed/Stamina regen + 15% Tool regen/Decon speed +15% Rpg damage/Mowtar radius + 15% Armour + 15% tier 3 300 60 Reload speed +20% Speed/Stamina regen + 20% Tool regen/Decon speed +20% Rpg damage/Mowtar radius + 20% Armour + 20% tier 4 400 80 Reload speed +25% Speed/Stamina regen + 25% Tool regen/Decon speed +25% Rpg damage/Mowtar radius + 25% Armour + 25% tier 5 500 100 Reload speed +30% Speed/Stamina regen + 30% Tool regen/Decon speed +30% Rpg damage/Mowtar radius + 30% Armour + 30% Reload speed is for non grenades/tools (no mines, grenades or engi tool) DOES affect mortar and RPG. % combine of the base value Example: Scout tier 1: Speed 110% Stamina regen 110% Total time 20 Total cost 100 Scout tier 2: Speed 125% Stamina regen 125% Total time 60 Total cost 300 Scout tier 3: Speed 145% Stamina regen 145% Total time 120 Total cost 600 Scout tier 4: Speed 170% Stamina regen 170% Total time 200 Total cost 1000 Scout tier 5: Speed 200% Stamina regen 200% Total time 300 Total cost 1500 Code: Buildings Turrets General Walls Specifics tier 1 125 25 Homing + 30% Unbuilt buildings/walls build at e build speed by themselves Comm Walls start built at 35% Infantry Spawn with 2X the ammo tier 2 250 50 Lvl 2s Resists +10% Resists +25% Ramps added to VF, so enemy tanks can't get in tier 3 375 75 Resists + 50% Built buildings/walls Repair at e build speed by themselves Comm Walls start built at 50% Repair pad Repairs and Rearms at 2x normal tier 4 500 100 Lvl 3s Sabotage takes 2x to do and only reduces to 65% Resists + 50% Radar detects infantry tier 5 625 125 Damage +30% Resists + 10% Comm Walls start at 75% built Armourys are spawn points Tier 1: Total cost 125 Total Time 25 Tier 2: Total cost 375 Total Time 75 Tier 3: Total cost 750 Total Time 150 Tier 4: Total cost 1250 Total Time 250 Tier 5: Total cost 1875 Total Time 375 Code: Combo Packs These research the tech of that tree specific tier. This includes infantry and buidings. Cost Time Total Cost Total Time tier 1 350 70 350 70 tier 2 700 140 1050 210 tier 3 1050 210 2100 420 tier 4 1400 280 3500 600 tier 5 1750 350 5250 950
Sum it up in 2 words please, for the attention impared :p I like the being able to research Mk2 versions of everything (medium MKII's, for teams hit hard by the recession), and the passive research upgrades to everything. Empires is lacking in passive bonuses, and as a result research often just 'finishes' once you get the biggest tanks you can afford and stuff to put on them. Something to consider is this will strongly encourage you to pick a tree and stick with it. Even if the enemy is using something your tree is weak against, your team might be better off just sticking with that tree, rather then having to research through all the low level crap in another tree. Not that empires really has counters or anything (other then bio stuff), but it would be cool to add some strategy and countering to research. Overall I like it alot. Definitely worth trying out sometime.
TIERS BITCHES! And now for more then 2 words for those who have a bit better attention. Essentially Its a redoing of the Research tree so that almost everything is split into 5 tiers. There would be 6 starting trees- Chemistry, Biology, Physics, Electrical, Mechanical, Engineering. Upon going into any tier but Engineering, you are presented with 4 choices. Tier 1 Armour, Tier 1 Weapons, Tier 1 Engine and Tier 1 Research Combo. Researching a tier would allow you to go further into that tier. Researching a combo pack would research the weapons, armour and engine for that research tree's tier. The combo pack would also give a discount on time and res. As the tiers progress the weapons and armour get farther away from standard. Tier 3 engines and armour would be the same as what we have now. Weapons would work in packages, getting several per tier. Going into Engineering, you are presented with 3 choices. Chassis, Buildings, Infantry. Chassis would bring you into a tree where all the chassis are available for research. MK2s would be researchable for all classes after the initial chassis had been researched. It would give that chassis higher weight limit and hull health. Infantry and Buildings work similar to the Main research trees. When you enter them you are presented with upgrades for different things and a combo pack. For a detailed example of how this would work, See my first post.
General question: Why change the current research tree? By this poll the current one seems to be quite balanced: http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=9944
Honestly, because when I played with drag's scripts, I really enjoyed them. In order to have that amount of variety the research tree needs to be overhauled somewhat. So I took that somewhat, and redid the whole thing for lots of variety. Balance would probably be screwed up for awhile, but balance shouldn't be the only factor. Fun and variety should be considered too. I think I would really enjoy a system like this.
the current research tree was a template until planes arrived anyway, it is boring confusing and impossible to balance
This is my main worry. It could take some month and several releases until it's balanced. And just have a look on 2.23. There many players stopped playing Empires because of the unbalance. The research tree is only confusing if you don't have a printout. So I tried to make the printout more easy to read (http://wiki.empiresmod.com/index.php?title=Image:Empires224TechTreeIcon.gif) And in my opinion the current research tree is balanced. Or can you tell me an instant win uber research path?
do i have to sum up the hacky fixes that got implemented to "balance" the research tree? none of those should be in the game other then to temporarily fix problems until the problem itself can be addressed currently empires mod problems all sprout from 3 cornerstones of crappyness 1- tech tree 2- GUI 3- the hacky fixes that make everything even harder to understand/balance
The balance is going to die the instant planes come out anyway. And infantry research probly needs to be implemented in some form or another, which will change everything yet again. I do like the current tree though. Its balanced enough to allow some variety but theres definatly better trees for each situation.
@OP: As you wrote, the values are placeholders and the effects you suggest, especially 2,5 weight and such wouldn't work. First of all: No building tech tree, no infantry tech tree like this. Focus on getting a vehicle based tech tree together first. Then in a second step infantry and airc... well stuff can be added. The suggested changes are currently not possible to do with how the research tree system works but I already asked a coder to see what can be done about that without months of recoding. Tiered armors have the problem of scaling up with the weapons reducing their effectiveness again. The end result is that tier 5 is strong against tier 1 (due to their bad armor) but just mediocre against tier 5 armor making games longer as they are supposed to be, so you have to be careful not to make the armor become as good as the weapons. I like the categorization of the weapons into the five tiers, do it for the other trees and I'll use it as a basis for a new scriptset (currently busy with skyjeeps) The suggested engine parameters aren't very feasible to use unless someone finds out what +10%torque means scriptwise. (I invite you to try!) So this part will need some more thought. I fully agree with the chassis research ideas and put something atop: I think the chassis upgrades should also change the slot layout giving BE a missile focussed tank (if they research it) and NF can get an additional cannon focussed tank. When I read this I, at once, wrote down the reasons why a change is needed. Then I had to do something else, came back, was content with my reasoning and deleted that useless, time consuming wall of text. So yea, the research tree is going to change one way or another and I'm not going to repeat the reasons here because I don't have to. Don't make me spell this out clearer or I'll lose my calm.
Every time I com for BE, I use the exact same research plan. The only things that get changed: if we are doing well, I get composite. If we are doing bad, I get meds instead of heavies. As long as I have a fairly competent team and am not stacked against, the team tends to do well. In my experance with 2.24, BE has a major advantage in research. The only viable vehicle mgs in the physics tree, and with the cannon focus for BE, they have advantage with ER. Electrical was viable, but the nerf to reactive has negated this significantly.
that is a common research path for BE, but experimentation shows that other paths work well too, meaning that it is balanced in my opinion. do note that this change that Mashav is suggesting is not ment to fix nonexistent imbalances, but to make a twist to the research tree that might make commanding a bit less confusing (lets hope) and potentially more fun. I know my arguement is very contrary to my standard montra of "if its not broken, don't fix it", but I do in fact support this. P.S. make some of those scout changes more stealth based, I see what you are trying to do there with your melee sprees by adding speed Mashav!
Need to make it a viable option to get mark2's, as in.. Engineering takes 120 seconds, costs 350res. Upgraded Chassis takes 180 seconds, costs 350res. Medium tanks take 240 seconds, costs 400res. Heavies are 300 seconds, costs1500res. This way, bigger tanks aren't necessarily researched /that/ often. Iono, I just wish bigger tanks weren't in the battle as soon as they are.
