[2.25] Apc spawns available after radar is build

emps should take a page out of science & industry

 

what about "Research XXXXXXXXXXXX Completed!" blinking colors

 

Personally I feel the apc spawns should remain a research, and instead have their research cost and time lowered.

Organizing a rush with APC's isn't about the spawn capability, however, the spawn capability bumps it's effectiveness. I'd question if this should be considered a real strategy, sure it's a great tactic, but there isn't anything strategical about having APC spawns. It lowers the effort it takes to organize an apc rush and IMO with that lowers real teamwork effort. APC spawns bring having teamwork and not having it too close to each other in terms of effectiveness, as the APC spawns can give the same results as having a team work together.


In this way, having it as a research, where you will have to choose it and spend time on the research item, adds a bit of the strategy back into having APC spawns. I agree that isn't a lot and essentially means you either get them when you have everything else already, or you get them straight away, but even then it has some benefits, like APC's not requiring to be fragile like they used to be.

Games are about perception and intelligence as much as they are about having faster reaction times, countering and knowing the game mechanics, for this reason I believe that APC's spawn as an optional research actually work benefitial for the APC spawn tactic as well. Although APC's might generally be considered as free kills, therefor still hunted down, the surprise factor in having apc spawns at a crucial moment has strong strategical value. The flipside is that APC's are not generally treated as much as a threat, like boom tank distractions are, which is something that has definetely had a better outcome for the gameplay. It requires less teamwork to counter and more teamwork to assault. Which IMHO is always a good thing as it keeps the game going; which sadly isn't something you notice very often in your general Empires game, but then again I do remember enough games in the old versions where APC's were reigning king more than the actual players on a team.


I agree that some of the fun factor was removed and the gameplay in general is more stale than it used to be in older versions, but some of the causes to this weren'yt because of actual gameplay change decisions, but rather how the ob port etc turned tank combat on its head. With this in mind I don't believe that bringing back APC spawns, either from the get go or some arbitrary mechanic with similar result, is the way to bring back the fun factor.

Empires focuses to heavily on rushing, and it is infact the strongest strategy in the game, APC spawns really only benefit rushing strategies, while they can be used in many different ways, they usually manifest in more effective rushing strategies. Considering that a balanced RTS game tends to put penalties on rushing, like some games actually have a built in "build up time" where players are given a few minutes to build up their base before the action happens. I believe that there is no real sin to go this route as well.

 

Strategy my ass.

 

ah, a very balanced and thought out post, very hard to beat indeed...

how will we ever be able to counter that?

checkmate

 

Yeh good point, I don't even know why I tried having a real discussion.

 

Yeah I like it how it is. It's kind of a mystery when an apc comes storming an area. You wonder.. Oh shit do they got 8 people? Or is it 1 scout.. Keep you on your toes.

I think this will just add more to the already gay lulzy jeep rush type strat where people just drive past enemy defenses and set up a rax in 4 seconds then have half the team spawn there. GG..

Less front line battles and more of a canyon cdr syndrome with people switching bases for hours.

 

games are about pacing /thread

 

The only thing I was neglecting was the FPS fun of having it. It's effectiveness is why losing teams will use it, I argued that it reduces the effort needed to use real teamwork.

If you want to take away Empires's attempt at volunteer teamwork (or whatever you would call the opposite of forced teamwork) there isn't much left in the design that you want to keep the same at this point.

Losing teams should get more opportunities to turn the tide, not get a win at the end of the game. APC spawns are perhaps a bit too dramatic to turn the tide with, why not use a full apc to try and take a forward base and gain back some map control. If lets say that doesn't work, the problem might be the travel time, but I doubt it's just the travel time and the low frequency of attacks on the forward base that would make such attacks not be as effective as you'd like.

 

minimally, squads should be able to spawn to squad members' apcs kind of like the half-tracks in Company of Heroes

 

a stationary apc only being able to spawn is kinda a neat idea that could nerf the apcspawns considerably without compromising the fun factor

or you could make apcspawns a grenade slot weapon and require too much weight for an apc to armor up and have a weapon

 

a squad leader would be nice

for example, if the squad leader is together with at least 2/3 of the squad, he becomes a spawn point

i think there are actually ways to make that work :p

 

i meant that with a full squad in mind, the 2/3 was aiming at 2 or 3 people (of max allowed)

yes, people could use it to channel people across the map

if they succeed to organise people like that, they earned it

 

You don't need APC spawns for this. Just put them on an APC.

I didn't, I mentioned it in my first post, the difference between good and bad teamwork is reduced because APC spawns don't need you to organize a rush, one guy needs to drive it somewhere and along the way, or even at the destination, people can spawn inside of it.

Again, wouldn't need APC spawns for this. However, having APC spwans from the start means that everyone is fully aware of the spawning capability and it makes the APC a more important target. So this tactic is only enforced with having APC spawns not from the get go. Which is also partly why I'm saying keep it as a research.

You can still research APC spawns, it isn't removed.

Winning the game isn't exactly turning the tide, a game needs to go back and forth, that's what makes a good game, every single thing you mentioned here ultimately wins you the game almost immidiately, unless it fails.

[/quote]

 

whatever the implementation is, it needs to read to the players well by some means besides a hint. free, instant research once you get a radar will show up for all players on a team instead of it appearifying from thin air.