Research Myths: I Can't Believe I'm Writing This

Bah! It doesn't really affect me unless I command, which is 50% of the time I play. Not usually out of choice, just lack of alternatives. If I do get into a vehicle, I'm usually looking for anti-vehicle MG's more than anything. Tank combat is just...not that interesting. You pound someone for a while, they pound back, you win and get repaired, you lose and respawn. It's much more fun in a vehicle that's based on movement and that you really have to try with. And that you can also shoot out of :p

 

I'm too lazy to split quotes up, so I'll just reply to each bit one-by-one and edit out what I have nothing to say to.

Armor/Engine combos are supposed to be in combinations of different trees, but because of some underlying problems in Empires that I still can't fully grasp, people tend to go for whichever tree has a great armor and decent engine, or great engine or decent armor (For varying interpretations of what's considered decent and great. I think Fission is awesome, but that's just, like, my opinion man.

Grens aren't OP; or if they are, then they've been for a while and not "now" because the mortar/RPG hasn't been touched in forever and neither has the infantry resists. Perhaps people are just noticing the +25% against mediums and the +33% damage bonus against heavies? (Which I will also note I can't find anywhere in neither the scripts nor the code, but it's what Trickster says so *shrugs*)

Upped the speed like five months ago; shit's fast as fuck. Also gave it more missiles per clip and more clips.

Well, HE *did* get a 33% damage reduction against buildings (again, 5 months ago). ER hasn't been touched in, well, ever. It got less inertia which helps with aiming while moving (Another interesting thing that most people don't know about is that cannons have an "inertia" value that sets how much they're affected by the tanks moving speed. Set it high enough and you can fire *behind* you while driving backwards.

It's always been more effective to take out buildings as a grenadier or engineer. That hasn't changed in ever (Well, except when UML beat the shit out of everything. Then UML was better at doing the job.) Although, 5xStdMl can rape buildings too.

Yeah, good luck with that. Inb4 we're back to CHEM CHEM CHEM ABS/AC/HE/UML/UGL again. I do miss 2.24 sometimes, but I don't miss that part. Empires players latch onto the best overall thing they can get, with over- and under-valuation of certain traits. And there's only so much you can do with the scripts until you start running into client/server information issues.

Personally, I want research to matter more by giving it some degree of hard counters. Individual research makes perfect sense from an FPS standpoint. It makes literally no sense from an RTS standpoint, except in a few certain cases like upgrading units in Dawn of War with different weapons, but that's a unique game having squads composed of individual units being the atomic unit (and it's still a really strategic thing there).

 

It's kinda startling that you think I haven't actually...

 

It used to be 80-90% or so, but that was a long time ago. I don't play much any more, so usually there's already a commander in place when I join, which is nice. But that's mainly the reason I get kinda annoyed by this.

Of course I die all the time as infantry now :p

 

No it got removed a long time ago. It took me a few versions to work that out but it was removed when we slimmed down the armour scripts from having per-chassis armours (like we currently do with engines) to just having armours that cover every chassis. I know I was still banging on about that resist like a year after it got removed because I didn't notice, but I'm fairly sure I was saying it was gone this time last year or something.

 

Just play the game more, that's the ultimate solution.

Scripts and patch notes really don't tell you anything at all.

 

I love tank battles. A hell of a lot more fun than looking at a calculator, slightly less fun than that perfect long distance mortar shot that ruins someone elses day. Slightly less fun than running through three guys with a machine gun, but still fun. I try to keep one tank the whole game, but that all depends on the research.

Absorbant USED to be good if the com dropped repair stations near the front line. Now it loses four plates of armor with a single shot of BIO. BIO easily kills APC's and Jeeps. And one reason few people rush APC's anymore. Nerfing the armor and the UGL makes them what we may have decided they should have been from the beginning - a transport vehicle. But since BIO is so OP, it's not really a decent transport vehicle.

A few more weapons have come into play, which is good. But I don't think HE should be nerfed quite as badly as it has been. That would help BE regain some strength vs both NF shotgun tanks, and ground troops. Funny how on NF one heavy can hold off a whole line of heavies pushing forward. I just continuously spam BIO, six shots in a spread over a period of time, while lobbing in HE or ER and they have to turn back for repairs.

So this game now really comes down to Engineers. They are critical for a win. If an engineer knows how to keep a tank from dieing, can drop a wall, can drop ammo, shoot grens that are shooting at tanks, repair and be aggressive pushing forward and reviving grens - You can't lose. One Vet Engineer will get a team into a base. If he has a nub engineer with revive to bring him back if he faulters, then the opposition is in trouble.

PUB Games: What is happening is early game too many people stay engineer, we need grens ten minutes in, 1 rifleman to put more force on the ground force push. But I do think half the team should remain engineers. Unfortunately once you ask for grens - all the vets change to gren and we're left with shit engineers that are ineffective. The nubs don't understand when they should change class, and what to do with that class. And we have alot of nubs learning this game now. Some are progressing fastly.

Wall complete...

 

Yeah, I know. But my point is if we can make it clearer and more accessible to newbies, it'll be much easier for them to get to grips with commanding and the like, which is just better over all.

I mean, look at what it's been in the recent years. There aren't that many people as often as there used to be, and what people learn in a year of playing we used to be able to get in a month. If we're not yet ready for a PR release, then we need to think about how to help the trickle of players coming in so that they're more likely to stick around, and that they actually understand the game quicker.

 

"Making the game easily accessible to newbies."
This is exactly what we failed to do in the past few years.

Commanding in Empires is easy, it's actually the only "class" that requires almost zero prerequisite to play well.

Give me 30 minutes teaching a newbie how to play Engineer, he'd still be terrible.
But give me 30 minutes teaching a newbie how to comm, I can make him play proper games against vet commanders. In fact, I've tried this already.

Our problem is that the game itself just can't teach a newbie how to comm properly.
"How to get into comm view?" is definitely one of the most asked questions.

I am only talking about commander, not to mention all other parts of Empires.

 

LazyBum - the BIO thing I am referring to did have some help from nubs in heavies that were being slaughtered. When I pushed forward properly using the two BIO shot separately and laid down continuous lines of bio, it caused the enemy to both withdraw and not pass through that green fog. We did eventually lose and I died miserably, but my point is that there are subtle psychological things that cause one weapon to be stronger than another. The green FOG is enough to scare some players away. HE Bigger BANG and SPLASH ward off ground troops. Although the smoke actually helps enemy tanks. Plasma scares no one - but is very dangerous to tanks. Almost like Scout sticky for tanks.

Ikalx - I don't see how nubs can command. I know it could be made easier. I know a lot of Vets who have played com still suck at it. Giving targets is the easiest way early game to over run the enemy. No one can hide from a team where the com gives targets and hiding is a tool - a com can remove from a good player. I can see decent individual enemy players doing well and target ten guys on that pro and he doesn't have a chance of survival. I would like to draw on mini maps though.

I helped a guy, with a mic, learn to com. Everything was done very slowly. He never left the vehicle and we never got a single target. But he did well. When he was done he said - "Holy shit that was exhausting". Most coms don't know that they need to COM via the mini-map. The research needs to be decided at start of the game, but changed depending on how the team is doing. Pulling teams forward by dropping armories and rax's is essential. And a team needs to have a strategy. It's odd how many vet teams give up rather than getting behind the enemy with a jeep. Doesn't everyone know the best way to diffuse a stronger team is to separate them or hit their flank.

I think I am weak on strategy but strong on doing many things at once, and never lagging on the research. So vets who can lead a squad with their own strategy, compliment my com ability and fill in the gaps. And I think most Vets would rather lead their own squad and not be micro-managed. Because I can help teams push, they get targets without asking, and I don't demand they follow my strategy I many times get a stacked team. So because of that I have more wins than losses. In many respects I still have a lot more to learn and need to play a lot more paranoid.

I would rather play than COM. I'm so happy Brentor is back! We do have some very decent COM's and you always need at least TWO on every night or the server will empty.

 

Ya COM is easy, but doing it and winning is not so easy. You need to know the maps and where things go. I know some of the players really well and they know they never have to type to me. We do everything faster and can easily overrun a nub com. Most com's let research lag. They watch the game from F2 view for too long. If they try to boom they are easily walled. Just so many things you can do to a new com that makes him frustrated. Next you have players yelling at you for the proper research for that map, or targets, or buildings. Waiting for a shitty com SUCKS.

Some vets are so egotistical they won't play properly. "COM give me an armory". "OK Give me 1 minute to find you, or you could just tell me who you are and where you are", "My coordinate shows up when I speak", "And I don't watch your voice tag since I am watching 20 other players, do we really need to do this now when TWO WORDS are all you need to say". Why doesn't everyone say "REF C1" instead of "COM I'd like a refinery" or hell FAAW is all that is needed. The blink is back. The Sun rotates around these guys and they assume you are only looking only at them. And one more reason why commanding is so fun.

 

That's almost an argument to remove the commander. You basically said "with a new player base, this game won't work at all".

I think what Security said more addresses the problem. We need some accessible tutorial tips and hopefully with the reworking of the research tree/gui it should be easier. Really the command interface isn't terrible, but we don't actually have things in place for those times - and there are many - where the server doesn't have an experienced player on each team.

This is something we, as the community, could probably come up with ideas for, and let the devs add them as hints or additions to the flavour text that already exists in the game. Things other than text would be useful, too, like I dunno indicator glyphs or whatnot, the idea that there should be a glowing hud element at the top centre of the screen while you're in the CV but in drive mode...stuff like that.

 

Commanding is not all about the interface. I do think that is laid out fine. Sure F2 should be more obvious or stated once you step in the command vehicle : "Hi there big boy, you've decided to lead your team by stepping into this vehicle. If you don't feel like being yelled at please exit by pressing E. To start your adventure press F2, and rock on".

When you have a nub vs nub team - which I have watched, they simply don't get the game. They build lots of defenses, and don't venture out of their base. They don't know to attack. Every once in a while a vehicle will leave base and die to turrets or deliver a nub to the enemy base and since they don't know how to take out buildings they die.

Eventually a vet joins and completely dominates the nubs and they lose faith in the game. I'm seeing a lot more turtling, even among some new vets. They fight head to head and won't go around a fight, leaving others to continue that fight. They think every single person in the area must die before they move on.

 

I saw the greatest 1 vs 0 loss last night on RAGE. Yes it was one guy vs NO ONE and he lost, and quickly. This demonstrates the lack of knowledge of the com vehicle and the game in general.

Prior to quitting the other player drove the com vehicle to the entrance of the base, right between the two turrets mounted high on the walls. The nub, now all alone and going for the win, drove upto the enemy vehicle. He got out of his com vehicle and after fumbling for on the ground, and not knowing to drop a wall, died due to the UMG on the wall - leaving his COM vehicle in front of the upgraded missile turret. He hadn't a VF so he had to walk all the way back and by the time he got there the com died.