why pursue realism? or why empires shouldn't take itself seriously Existing games and the picture plane (#19 is HL2) Recommended reading: Redefining cartoony game art I'm going to be frank in saying that empire's art direction is extremely generic to the point of being bland. One thing that has been bugging me like mad this whole time is the insistence that things should be realistic even if the game will look dated after only few years (or even less in the case of empires). Seeing as Empires will be a mod with a long lifespan (it's already been around for years) why not pursue an art style that wont seem as dated once HL3 (or whatever replaces source) comes along? Not to mention that once a game pursues realism it is immediately compared with retail games that have professionally trained and payed employees with access to better equipment than a free indie mod/game. With stylistic art direction we allow for a greater suspension of disbelief which will make many the game's important (and not so important) mechanics which simply don't make any sense easier to grasp for new players (pretty much all squad powers, commander places buildings appearing out of nowhere, tanks pushing friendly infantry while running over enemy infantry, endless ammo from engineer ammo crates, exaggerated physics (tanks hitting mines come to mind), jeeps pushing heavy tanks around, cartoony sounding voice acting...don't get me wrong, I love NF's voice but it sounds like it belongs to a cartoon villain, and the fact you have to unload a stupid amount of lead into an enemy before they die, it's kinda laughable When you think about how Empires apparently takes itself seriously. the gist of this thread is... "realism is boring" game philosophy + realistic wannabe graphics= "realism is boring" game philosophy + art style that reflects this= Pursuing realism on a graphically dated engine is self defeating which is why I feel a stylistic art direction is needed for empires If a graphical upgrade were to be made again (similar to 2.0) to stand out in the mod community (which mostly suffer from the same affliction as empires) for years to come. --------------- Ideas thus far: (+1 agree)
empires isnt about the graphics, the graphics are slaves of the gameplay, gameplay is not slave to how they graphics want to represent it besides why put work in new models and stuff if we need a new gui more badly etc also we dont really have a moddler atm
Any game which is not about both gameplay and graphics both being as good as humanly possible isn't trying. Empires isn't realistic, there's no realistic way people would build bases like in empires, or tanks like empires tanks, empires art isn't realistic or unrealistic, it's just bad. The NF drive giant WW1 tanks with spikes on them and both sides build bases like crazy in the middle of nowhere, how is that remotely realistic? It's more stylised than it is anything else.
This is really more a thread talking about how the art direction is trying to be realistic and failing (making it bland, generic, cheesy etc...) and how this mod shouldn't take itself seriously than a formal suggestion (which is why it's not in the suggestion forum) As it is, it's not even stylized, it just looks sloppy instead because the game is trying to be serious, and the art direction as you put it is also bad. A stylistic/non realistic (or however you want to put it) art direction tells the player "hey, this mod isn't serious" (which it really isn't) I mean, your post pretty much highlights why the art direction for this game needs to reflect that. Hell, it would be nice for this game to just have art direction! It's simply all over the place as if it wants to be realistic but doesn't know how. With that said, how about we begin brainstorming about what this mod needs for an artistic facelift?
I totaly agree Lithium, I made a thread about the same topic like half a year ago and got flamed to death cause most people didnt even understand whats that all about. Prepare for it
Yeah, I feel like I except too much out of this community sometimes... Prove me wrong, Empires community!
im sure if someone really had a bug up their ass and the talent to inject empires with some seriously wicked concepts and execute them too, no one would argue with it.
lol Krenzyte seriously though I would post examples but because of past experiences (see last post in the page) in this forum everyone would just obsess over critiquing those instead of contributing, so it's best that no one actually tries to draw a concept until people make it clear what direction they want to go in (that was mainly directed at people who post concepts in this forum). so, why not begin? If a change in art style were to happen, what direction do you think empires should go?
It's sad how so many people look just at the graphics. Sure they are like 50% of the game because that's the stuff which gives you visual feedback but when game is 90-80% about graphics only (Like EA games) then the game is missing its point. It isn't meant to be about graphics. Graphics just make it look good and nice to watch that visual feedback but the real thing which keeps the game going is the gameplay, the idea behind it, how it functions and works. All those less concrete things in the virtual computer world. Graphics are the concrete things, gameplay and all other that kind of non-concrete things are spirit of games, and many modern games are missing that idea. Plants vs. Zombies is good example where the developers went right. It isn't about graphics, it as very simple cartoony graphics almost totally in 2D but it has huge variety of different game modes and gameplay ideas. And that's the reason why it's so good game. So yeah... Realistic graphics aren't worth much in any game if it's core idea is hollow. The graphics are just the outter shell of it.
If it were good, it would be stylised, but it isn't good, all the models and textures are rather poor, if the models were similar in quality to UT3 they'd look 'stylised' as you put it, at the moment they are just bad, that's my point. None of the art is realistic apart from possibly the BE medium, if the mod was 'trying to be realistic' it wouldn't have vehicles or buildings or classic maps because vehicles and buildings and classic maps are realistically impossible. That aside, whether the graphics are 'realistic' is completely arbitrary, crysis has far more realistic graphics than empires, both in terms of fidelity and in terms of style, all the guns and vehicles and uniforms are close to or copies of real life ones, and it uses all the military code crap over the radio, but it also has guys in super suits who can jump ten feet in the air and punch people into orbit, as well as aliens and tanks that shoot lasers and a motherfucking freeze ray. Realistic or not realistic is irrelevant, what matters is whether it looks good, and looking good has nothing to do with whether the graphics are cartoony or not cartoony, cartoony graphics date just as badly as realistic graphics if they're badly done, but crysis and far cry 2 and similar games are probably going to look awesome for years to come. Also I don't particularly want to play empires that looks like TF2.
Nintendos WII games, mario and metroid are a good example how to use the limited recourses of the console, same for Zelda (windwaker) for the game cube. If you try to make the game look like more than the console or in this case the engine can take you will fail. And crysis will look outdated soon but I guess a game like the new sam & max series will last a long time cause the graphic doesnt try to be something that it cant handle. Crysis might look super realistic atm but you can bet that their will be a game in the near future that looks even more super realistic and than the game looks outdated.
Considering the backstory to Empires, the style should be a stylized, but gritty WWII type thing IMO.
The only way a game cannot look outdated is if it's 2d and uses rendered sprites, and even then it tends to look outdated in time when better rendering techniques arrive and more effects and gameplay mechanics are put into the next 2d game. 3d games always look dated after long enough, the point is they still look damn good, crysis looks damn good and will still look damn good when the super duper mega reality 3d virtual reality engine arrives.
Okami, killer 7, windwaker, viewtiful joe, Jet grind radio, Grim Fandago disagree hell, you can even mix realistic with stylistic if you're worried about it looking cartoony @blizzerd: that screenshot is still relatively pleasing to the eye imo (environments), besides I don't think that's what Mayama meant) Anyways, you guys are derailing the thread so I'm not going to jump into this debate. just post what you would want in a realistic art style that you think would fit empires then if you're so opposed to a sylistic art style... Is it that hard to make a collaborative effort? does everything have to be so combative? I mean there's a reason that this isn't in the suggestions forum you know (as you said, the devs lack modelers now). I just feel that we need to discuss the art direction in this game and as I said in a previous post:although I would prefer stylized graphics, I will be satisfied if there simply was art direction no matter where it's placed on the picture spectrum.
Hell yeah for this. The thing is, that if an art direction is chosen, you better stick with it. There needs to be an art DIRECTOR, who oversees the artists, so they don't introduce elements that are out of sync with the rest of the game. For instance, if you put Marcus Fenix from Gears of War into TF2, it sure can look good, but it will look out of place. Problem with mods is that this is a hobby. People do this kind of things for fun. A mod team is a gang of amateurs who are in it for kicks of making games. They will be making things they love and want to see, not necessarily what the art director wants, since they aren't being paid. Also the skill of these amateurs plays a big part. I for one am all for a massive overhaul of Empires graphics, so that there will be an achieved consistency in the visuals. But this is not top priority.
I want more polies and pixels on existing models and their textures, and possibly to rework the NF tanks into something a bit less fuck ugly. Making them a bit more like WW2 churchills cross bred with T72s is what I had in mind, along with maybe the barrel off an M26 pershing, with defininte WW2 russian tank overtones. Basically somewhat crude, but still perfectly beastly looking tanks, as a counterpoint to the BE angular and high tech look. All the buildings could do with a revisit but I need a lot more practice especially with texturing before I can do that properly. The NF would benefit from a more industrial theme to their buildings, possibly with concrete bunker elements, like a sort of cold war era missile silo, all heavy metal doors and thick concrete shells with big ventilation systems and rust stains on the concrete, a nice grungy look.
