Yet another scout rebalance proposal, also affects rifleman and general infantry.

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Chris0132', Jul 5, 2009.

  1. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I don't think I've made a proper outline of this before, so here goes, got nothing else to do at the moment.

    As I see it there isn't really a role for the scout as a saboteur, because it's a one trick pony, and it annoys everyone else. There is however a role for the scout as a combat class.

    Apparently the current fad is for riflemen to use dig in, much to the annoyance of everyone in the universe it seems apart from me who still uses accuracy.

    Well how about we keep riflemen as a tough and slow class, but to offset it, we add in a fast and high damage class, the scout.

    Scout weaponry would include a shotgun, and probably the assault rifle, and maybe a primary-weapon-grade SMG which performs somewhere between the shotgun and the assault rifle, although this isn't neccesary. Both sticky bombs are rolled into one and the scout gets it, he also gets a 20% innate speed boost to normal and sprint speeds, which stacks with speed upgrade, and 50% extra stamina which stacks with stamina upgrade, scouts also lose 15 HP, giving them a max of 85, which can be regained with health upgrade.

    So scouts now move like shit off a stick, and have very high damage close range weapons for both tanks and infantry, however their low health means they can't bumrush their enemy, however in close quarters they are quite lethal, they also make superb ambush tank killers because their dual stun-damage sticky can make tanks easy prey for other infantry, while their speed allows them to use them more effectively. They also retain sabotage which gives them close range anti structure ability, although the DoT is nerfed substantially so that they cannot take out whole bases alone. They retain hide so they can still sneak if needs be, or hide if they come under fire with no method of escape, their low health and this ability makes them ideal for players who like to outsmart their enemy, picking one off and going into hiding, however unlike the ranged rifle it isn't as lame because an aware player can spot and kill an incautious scout before they get into range.

    Riflemen on the other hand get another 5% added onto their armor, so they gain 15% damage reduction as standard, they have 30% less stamina than the other classes and move 10% slower. They also gain dig in as an innate ability however its stamina to damage reduction ratio is nerfed so that, taking into account the stamina reduction, it overall takes 50% less time to deplete the stamina bar and do damage to the rifleman's health than it does now. Depleting the stamina bar should also cause exhaustion if it doesn't already so once a rifleman has taken some hits, he loses his protection until his stamina regenerates. The rifleman also gets access to the ranged rifle, which has some modifications. It gets a less powerful zoom but is still slightly more powerful than the other weapons, and it gains the ability to bypass rifleman armor and dig in, although it still depletes their stamina, thus making it a good skirmishing weapon for riflemen, which fits their playstyle. Their inability to hide combined with the weapon's reduced effectiveness against other classes and the reduced zoom should stop them from being true snipers, and it keeps a perfectly good pair of models in use. Mortar rounds can also deal a disproportionate amount of stamina damage to riflemen, again making them easier for other classes to take out, concussion grenades can have the same effect.

    The overall effect should be that the rifleman gains high resistance to small amounts of damage, but sustained fire or damage from multiple classes removes most of his resistance and will kill him, such as two close range shotgun blasts, one to disable digin and take some health off, and the next to finish him off, or a ranged rifle shot followed by an SMG burst, thus allowing players to work together. This makes riflemen very good cover fighters, once they take a hit or two they duck behind cover and wait for their stamina to regenerate and then fight again, a lone rifleman should be able to do this five or six times without dying, an engineer will increase this ability indefinitely.

    Once you have made these speed and health modifications to the classes, they can be expanded into the other classes, the grenadier can have the same armor vest as the rifleman and gain a more powerful form of dig in which only works against vehicle weapons, as his style of fighting is similar to the rifleman, only against vehicles instead. Engineers can get a stamina buff and 15 fewer HP, like the scout, because their support role means they need to move around more and keep up with the advance to lay cover when they meet the enemy, but they should remain vulnerable to flanking, at the moment it's hard to kill a large nest of engineers and they are a rather powerful class, reducing their combat effectiveness and making the other three classes be more important should make them a more favourable alternative to the engineer.

    I feel these changes preserve and improve the best aspects of the scout, the high speed close range combat which is augmented by enhanced senses and hide, and makes them into a developed and entertaining playstyle. It also gives the rifleman the more defined role of a trench fighter, as well as a number of exploitable weaknesses that other classes can take advantage of. It goes some way to make grenadiers a more feasable unit to engage vehicles with and would compliment improved weaponry for that class, and it reduces the dominance of the engineer in game numbers.

    It assumes all bugs regarding the sometimes odd behaviour of dig in are to be fixed.
     
  2. SupaChupa

    SupaChupa Member

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    espically about the part of making engineers a support class instead of a battlefield god
     
  3. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Well it's not that engineers are good combatants, they aren't, they have the weakest weapons of any of the classes, the point is they are extremely numerous and tend to come in packs, which makes them a threat and kind of annoying, if I flank the enemy I don't want to see two rifleman, one grenadier, and four engineers.

    I'd rather see fewer engineers and encourage them to stay out of combat, while giving them something else to help them be a support class, such as increased mobility.

    Really speaking, I think engineers need a unique weapon, something that will keep them out of the front lines, their frontline abilities could be distributed to other classes, grens could get ammo crates because it compliments their mortar and RPG, all classes could get first aid kits which very slowly regenerate and can be used to heal allies, sort of like a medical only calculator with a long recharge, revive could be given a considerable cooldown and be given to scouts because it compliments their frailty, a few scouts working together behind the lines can keep each other alive, and riflemen can get the ability to drop sandbags and walls, because cover compliments their fighting style, a mix of combat classes working together is better than one combat class and one dedicated support class.

    I don't know what the unique weapon would be, possibly some sort of deployable which the engineer can control in some way, like a machinegun or mortar nest which is more powerful than the handheld version but is vulnerable or only works when facing one direction so it works better when deployed behind the lines and used to support the attackers or defenders. You could also give them more deployables, like something which creates a health regeneration aura around its deployed location or which scrambles enemy sensors, things like that.

    I don't really like engineers being on the front lines because they can't be given a unique combat style there, because if you do it makes them overpowered due to their ability to set up bases and cover and things like that. They can't have those abilities and a powerful direct combat ability.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2009
  4. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    The basic premise of rifles slower and tougher while scouts faster I've put forward myself, but the way in which you've done it I don't agree with.

    I'm a little busy right now, so I'll do a bigger response later...
     
  5. Roflcopter Rego

    Roflcopter Rego Member

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    Like:
    Scout changes, bar health. Seriously, don't fuck around with health. Grens and Rifles already have armour, buff that if it is needed.
    Dislike:
    Everything you said about rifleman, except speed nerf. TBH I think that would be enough. Perhaps moving the scout rifle over would be good too.
     
  6. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I think modifying health is a better idea than adding arbitrary damage resistance which you can't see.

    In fact remove rifleman armor and add 15 health instead, that way it shows up in the squad UI and people will be able to see it.

    I don't suppose it's entirely neccesary to remove health from the scout, but I am adamant about the engineer and rifleman.

    -10% speed won't affect the rifleman's combat performance, without the other changes it's pointless.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2009
  7. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    Right real reply time.

    First off, fuck the one trick pony.

    Now for the real points

    Giving the scout the assault rifle doesn't fix one of the main problems with moving fast, the reduced accuracy. For the shotgun it likely won't be much of a problem but running and spraying with an AR will not work all that well. Also, if they have an AR they can still just stay put and fire, giving no real change from rifleman now. This is especially true if they get reduced health. A weapon that is lethal at range will just make it so that the scout doesn't have to get close.

    Without some way to deal with the main threats stopping the ability to push (people seeing you, turrets shooting you, targets showing you) the speed won't really do much. Its like driving a 3phase jeep with scout speed into a field of mines, you're still gonna die. Direct speed is not really needed, where as increased mobility is. Speed does help mobility, but theres more things stopping the scout right now that speed won't solve. Its also easier to give more mobility to the scout if the other classes have some kind of disadvantage, such as worse moving accuracy or slower strafe and back up speeds.

    Giving a dual normal/stun sticky to scouts, especially with their new speed, will obsolete grens even more. If the rifle is slowed down and keeps his stickys, the stickys are no longer as powerful, requiring a gren more often.


    As for rifles, giving them the scout rifle, and giving it a buff against other rifleman, just leads to the same snipers lead to more snipers. Innate dig in would be interesting, but likely just be really annoying. With a downside such as no stamina, that should really be a choice. Less zoom and more damage on the scout rifle also seems like the old penis rifle, and not in a good way.

    Exhaustion seems like a good idea. Stamina drain for concs is a good idea (I've suggested it myself)

    Damage resistance increase and more powerful dig in I agree with, but no speed reduction. Rifles already have slower stamina regen, so I don't think that's necessary.

    For gren, Anti vehicle armour seems good, but the innate dig in would probably be more annoying then useful.

    For engi, stamina buff and health decrease seems really unnecicary. 15 hp means maybe 1 less smg shot and won't make much difference. Flanking doesn't occur all that much nowadays mainly because of comm targets and turrets. The main thing I'd like done to the engi is reduce the throw range of seismics so that they have a harder time against turrets and have to get close to bombard buildings.

    The engi does need some kind of disproportionate advantage over the other classes though, just because they're what makes empires go around. With no engis theres no buildings, no res for vehicles and alot less ability to hold the line. They're the gateway to much of empires gameplay. Ideally I think distribution should roughly be 40%, 20%,20%,20%.

    Then theres this...

    This is how I would describe my own changes except omitting one phrase.... Very odd...
     
  8. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I wasn't thinking of having them shoot while running, I was thinking of having them flank and shoot people with the AR, if they want to shoot while running, use the shotgun. The AR is very good at close range so I see no reason why the scout couldn't use it more effectively than the rifleman, there's also the issue of the shotgun not always being practical, so the scout needs a weapon which can be used at mid-long range, albeit less effectively than at close range, the AR fits that bill.

    Giving the scout increased speed would give all other classes slower back up and strafe speed.

    Yes the scout will be limited by the lack of cover, but he will be less limited than the slower classes because he can move between cover more easily and hide when there isn't any. Hide and speed boosts are all I can think of to make the scout the most mobile class, you can't give them moving accuracy because it'd really mess up the other classes, you'd have to make it really accurate to make it usable and that means you'd make the other classes pretty obsolete. Giving them a high damage weapon and the ability to get in close to use it seems pretty reasonable to me. In close quarters maps they'd be able to kill the lead player of a squad and then leg it backwards and hide somewhere, then the squad come through looking for him, probably missing him if he hides well, then he might kill the last player as he goes past and leg it away again, I'd enjoy doing that and the speed and damage of the class would allow me to.

    The dual purpose sticky would be more powerful yeah, but it'd still be limited by the problem of range, the scout would be able to ambush vehicles yes, but he still can't fight them in pitched battles, which is what the grenadier should be good at, I said the grenadier changes would compliment improved weaponry and I am kind of thinking of the RPG being a solid anti tank weapon, doing maybe 2/3rds the damage of a sticky to an average tank, maybe less to light tanks to stop it being overpowered, so it's a perfectly viable weapon that works at all ranges. I don't think that would be made obsolete by the sticky, although the two would work well together. I don't see that it matters if a bunch of scouts gang up on a tank and sticky it to death, because it's the number of players you want, what class they are shouldn't matter as much and stickies fit the fast scout style.

    I don't think the scout rifle would cause sniper problems, as I said it should be a sniper rifle, it should be something more like the NFHR except with a slower ROF and more damage, as well as a slightly better zoom, it's not something you camp a mile away with because you can't hit anything from that distance and you'd just get shot anyway, it's something you'd use like you do the carbine or HR now, except it works better against riflemen.

    If you wanted you could add the rifleman damage buff to the carbine and HR if you are particularly opposed to the scout rifle, it would probably have a similar effect, I just think it'd be nice to keep the scout rifle as an option, seems a shame to waste it.

    Stamina drain being non optional is supposed to be a problem, it's what stops riflemen from being able to advance like terminators, they are supposed to be cover fighters so if you catch them in the open you should be able to slow them down and kill them, dig in only activated when crouched after all so if the riflemen want to advance fast they just do it standing, and they won't get exhausted, that's also why I suggested the 10% speed cut so they always move a bit slower. They aren't going to be moving much when they're in cover and the reduced max stamina means their bar will refill much faster, and also the increased dig in efficiency means that it won't be completely nerfed by the reduction. Basically the innate dig in should deplete faster than currently, but also recharge faster, with a downtime in between where the rifleman is exhausted and can't move as fast.

    The engi doesn't need to be as popular as it is. As I said in the other post you can move most of its frontline functions to the other classes, and all classes can E build, which in large numbers is more than enough to put a rax up, it just means that people will have to start all E building the rax rather than waiting for the engies to do it.

    I flank a lot of the time, you flank a lot I know damn well because you play scout a lot, the fast scouts would still be able to hide away from comm targets and turrets, turrets aren't that heavily used anyway, and plenty of empires maps offer lots of cover, especially urban maps, and ways for people to flank, so you have a class which has had its ability to flank buffed, and its effectiveness while flanking buffed, so I think flanking would become more popular.

    Engineers are already the best vehicle driving class and as vehicles are a huge part of empires I don't think they need much else, they can retain all their current functions, but other classes can have them too to make the engineer class less neccesary on the front line. I think groups of players is what should be focussed on, not particular classes of players, having something be impossible without a particular class doesn't add anything, classes should be to cater to particular styles of play, they should add to the game, not impose arbitrary rules which aren't neccesary.
     
  9. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    Giving the scout a medium to long range weapon kind of defeats the purpose of making him close range. If already in cover with teamates, you can just fire like a rifleman. There's not much incentive to move up. A less recoiling smg would likely be much better, especially at close range.

    Relatively, yes. Actually no. Changing the scout's speed doesn't change mobility of the other classes

    Moving in between cover would be faster, but theres still the problem of turrets, cameras and comm targets letting everyone know where you are. There have been numerous suggestions to make the scout more mobile. From my, anti-turret, comm target, camera and radar radar stealth and limited squad hide like hide, to Metal Smiths, 5% perma hide and others turret, and target lag.

    Moving accuracy would not need to be overly powerful, just a little boost. Just a small thing to solidify the flavor and give a boost. The standing accuracy of all the guns isn't all that great anyways.

    Having the scout be very useful at close range and making his skills and such help him close the gap Is what I want, I've just gone a different path then you.

    Sticky grenades do suffer from the problem of range, but they still get a large amount of kills. Giveing the scout a buffed version and increased speed will just increase this by alot. With ammo increase now I can kill 90% of tanks If I hit the same side with all 4. Adding stun effect and 20% speed will make this much easyer. As for it fitting the style, I think this is the main disconnect between us. I believe that the scout should get close to things and disable them (sabotage without DoT buidlings, Increased stun on tanks, Killing a couple players in a defense) while you think get close and kill them.

    People still camped with the old scout rifles, and they didn't zoom all that far or fire all that accurately. It would still just amount to people using it to camp. As for making it useless, I want it kept as a scout secondary weapon. A pistol slot, and deservingly so, weapon. I want it to do less, but some damage, wind people and drain engi calculator tool. I think the pure damage of the rifleman should negate the dig in of the other rifles, while the other classes have specific things(concs, mortars, scout rifle).

    Crouching+hits=Stamina drain just seems very bad to me. Considering that most weapons only have good accuracy while crouched, this would be very annoying. If there was no dig in innate then someone out of cover would likely die anyways, and I like concs or the scout rifle to do this anyways. Fast recharging, low amount dig in seems a bit like most modern FPS's where you hide for a couple seconds and you're at full health again.

    Engi's are over popular now, I agree but moving things like ammo and healing I just don't like. Not that I'd actually like this, but it would be interesting to see what happens if the engi had no primary weapons.

    I play scout only on district, escort, when I feel like fucking around or I have a competent squad about to do something that could be improved by a scout (stuns for the enemy comm, Sabotage for a rax rush). Hideing requires that you hide pretty much everywhere in order to not get targeted and I see turrets in alot of places. I also want flanking to work better, but slow, hiding flanking doesn't work all that well.

    Take district. I rush alot, but as soon as I get underneath the enemy lines in the tunnels, I need to squad hide. If I don't there's someone waiting for me when I get up. Even If I do get up there, I have to use melee because theres people and turrets everywhere. If I become unhidden, then I'm dead.

    Engineers are the best vehicle driving class right now, but I think that when it comes to vehicles, every class should be different but equal. The ability to repair give a significant advantage to engis, but this can be lessened a couple of ways. Making hull repairs take longer was a wonderful step towards it. Moving healing and vehicle repair onto a skill and building repair and decon onto a different skill would likely nerf solo engis running and capping everything. Making grens able to penetrate armour to some amount means that the engi would have to spend more time repairing the hull. Buffing turrets and mines means that grens and scouts (If my radar stealth was introduced) would become more useful tank drivers. As for rifle, I've said swap vehicle armour and damage, and buff the armour to 20-25%.

    Theres always alternatives to everything, and these alternatives are alternative styles of play. You find a turret now, and a gren or engi can easyly take it out. A rifleman will have difficultly, especially depending on ammo and a scout will hide up slowly and sabotage it. In my version, engi can slowly wall his way up, gren can kill it easily, rifle will have problems and a scout can just run up and sab.

    As for group work, I think that giving classes specific disadvantages does help groups. A full group full of only one class (besides engi) won't get very far because of this.
     
  10. OuNin

    OuNin Member

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    I like the idea of making rifleman capable of acting as a base of fire while I get my scunts to do a crapton of damage close up. However, with a majority of Empires maps wading in the wide-flat pool, I don't like removing ranged capabilities of scouts too much.

    I saw that scouts should be the Swiss Army knife where the rifleman is a hammer. As you said, scouts would be good at quick-high damage at close range. I feel that scout should be the answer to riflemen typically dominating infantry and have the capability of engaging (or at least harrassing) them at longer ranges.

    In short, scout would be like a pointman/ranger.
     
  11. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Give the scout longer juming range, jumping is alot better to avoid bullets
    and rush from cover to cover. If you dont like bunnyhopping, I like the way
    its in neotokyo implemented. You can jump 2 times very far but your stamina
    is almost zero after that.

    Cause of targeting, make it so the scouts hide skill works in every stance
    and drains extra stamina if you move.
     
  12. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    i dont like the idea of bunnies jumping around :(
     
  13. zenarion

    zenarion Member

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    I like this. Very yes.
    Giving grenadiers a semi-dig-in thing, and some kind of armor that protects them from spash damage weapons (so often carried by vehicles) would be good. It would maybe make the grens be less of the jumpan-weaboo-robot-fightan things they are now, since that is just too arcade for my tastes.
     
  14. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    You mean its fun to crouch infront of a tank and shot
    you rpgs while the thank shots shells at you?

    I dont like slowness it feels so boring and involves not much thinking.
     
  15. Mageknight

    Mageknight Member

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    I like the idea of seperating the combat roles of scouts and riflemen like you suggested, but two things:

    1.) Like OuNin said, giving the scout an AR might not be the best thing. I think a shotgun/SMG combo makes more sense for what you're describing. Perhaps even a scout-unique SMG, although that might be more work than it's worth

    2.) This needs a rename. What you're describing is no longer a "scout"; it needs a more accurate name to a light combat role - something like "commando" or "specialist" or something like that.

    also: sorry to anyone who likes the scout rifle, I feel for you, but the SMG + shotgun combo fits empires so much better
     
  16. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    No you use cover like the rifleman would, the point is that when you poke your head out to shoot it doesn't mean you instantly get decimated by the enemy tank, and if you see a shell coming at you you can crouch to resist it.

    Which is why I suggested the AR, it works at all ranges but is more effective close up, if there is a noticable lack of cover, take the AR, you can still outflank the enemy with your speed but you don't have to be right on top of them.

    The AR should be the secondary choice of the scout, the shotgun should be the primary choice, if you replace the AR with an SMG it becomes a less effective shotgun, unless you make the SMG perform like the AR does in which case why not just use the AR.

    You can't target a scout with hide at all as far as I know, if you can, just make it so hide blocks comm targets completely whenever it's available, that seems easier than making it take stamina when the scout needs his stamina to move fast.

    The same goes for jumping, I don't think having the scout deplete his stamina to jump is a good idea.

    Considering he sprints 20% faster than other clases and has a much longer sprint time, I think he can already move a hell of a lot faster than you think. Combine this with stamina upgrade or speed upgrade and he's going to be extremely mobile.
     
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2009

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