What is fair?

Discussion in 'General' started by recon, May 13, 2010.

  1. recon

    recon SM Support Dev

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    We all draw the line somewhere.

    Generally, people think things like:
    • Aimbots
    • Wall hacks
    • Glowing models / ESP
    Are cheating, and aren't fair.

    In Empires, there's an issue that falls in a bit of a gray area:
    • Changes to the appearance of models
      • Jeeps without rollbars. Pro argument: They should be in the game. Everyone should have them. Con argument: If everyone doesn't have them, the people who do have an unfair advantage.
      • [another item here]
    Personally, I think everyone should see the same game. If they don't, it's not fair. What do you think?
     
  2. Fooshi

    Fooshi For fuck's sake Fooshi

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    Since rollerbar-less jeeps will always be available, make them official?
    Though, that would make it "unbalanced" (NF = 4 seats vs. BE = 2 seats, and with the NF jeep costing 20 more res (?))
     
  3. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    If the model is available on the Empires forums for everyone, then its not cheating IMO.

    I don't like the non-official models = cheating argument because I think a similar one could be made for binding squad skills. Everyone could bind arty strike to make it easy to do, but not everyone does, so how is this not 'cheating'?
     
  4. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    want me to make mat-hax (like glowing and see through stuff) and post a link here so that they become legal aswell?

    srsly - availability is no factor in this :rolleyes:
     
  5. zenarion

    zenarion Member

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    How about the community stops dictating to devs what exactly they need to waste their time on?
     
  6. Empty

    Empty Member

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    Everyone can get a copy of wallhacked player textures.
    Your logic is flawed.
     
  7. Brutos

    Brutos Administrator Staff Member Moderator

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    Only nes gui and maybe some modified sounds are fine, even though sounds might be borderline.

    Basically everything that gives you an advantage is unfair.
     
  8. gezor

    gezor Member

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    depends.

    rollbarless jeep and cheap particles arent cheats, they are tweaks. 2.25b already has cheap particles, the rollbarless jeep should be added too. every1 hates the f*ckin bars.
     
  9. Empty

    Empty Member

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    I replaced all the sounds with Starcraft sounds because it sounded cool.
    Is that cheating? I had a coolness advantage.
     
  10. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    I lol'd.

    I kinda agree with Brutos's "anything that gives you an advantage", although that would be "unfair advantage" lol.

    Edit: But then again, we have a sometime-ish massive advantage that is completely dependent on one person and basically dictates how infantry battles are fought on the minutiae, so I guess it doesn't really matter in empires.
     
    Last edited: May 13, 2010
  11. Emp_Recruit

    Emp_Recruit Member

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    lol@avaliable on forums making it fair

    brb in 30 min i'll DL and install empires on my laptop and make a fully functioning wallhack that includes mines and separate colored heads and post on here then its fair mmmright???
     
  12. Metal Smith

    Metal Smith Member

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    Community content born of necessity is fair.

    IE, rollerbarless jeeps.

    why? because the roll bars server no purpose. Making the jeep harder to drive is a lame justification to having a giant piece of metal in the middle of your driving view. The only reason to have the point of view from that point is to have the player model accurately situated inside the vehicle.

    the only possible issue could be if bullet hit detection was determined by client side collision meshes. should test this.
     
  13. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    that would be just absurd ...
     
  14. recon

    recon SM Support Dev

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    That's what I was getting at.
     
  15. .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329

    .:.HeXi.:. emcalex329 Member

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    Fairness would technically be to allow people to do whatever the fuck they want as long as they have the skills/time/connections/whatever to get it done.

    I think what this is referring to is equality...
     
  16. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i urge you to consult a dictionary ...
     
  17. Demented

    Demented Member

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    I define "fair" as "not Empires". From the very start, teams are different.
    Cheats are generally better judged by how they break the game than by how 'fair' they are.
    • Aimbots, in their absolute form, break the game with any accurate hitscan weapon (MW2, CS:S, Empires), making retaliation by conventional players almost impossible. On the other hand, a lesser aimbot in the form of auto-aim may actually be implemented to aid casual or beginning players, and make modestly good players think they're hot stuff when they record skill videos.
    • Wallhacks generally break the engagements of most games, but they also break the graphics. What semblance of atmosphere can you maintain if everything is mandated as translucent? In Empires we have no less than three forms of wallhack, but all are inferior to translucent walls.
    • Mousewheeling breaks the game with any semi-automatic feature where the limit is considerably faster than a player can conceivably click. Semiautomatic weapons can often be fired at very near their limits, where a player clicking more slowly might actually be penalized significantly as they increase their speed. I've seen similar with many forms of jumping in games, especially bunnyhopping and walljumping. TF2 eventually compensated for one form of this by making the pistol fully automatic, completely eliminating any advantage from mousewheeling.
    • A translucent GUI rarely breaks an encounter that shouldn't have been broken anyway, as players are typically displeased when a GUI obstructs their view. It also improves the graphics–at least, according to the opinions of many–to the point that it is widely considered worthy of implementation.
    None of these, in any case, are 'fair' for one player to use and another player not to use, but in some forms they can be implemented or compensated for, while in other forms they are simply cheats.

     
    Last edited: May 14, 2010
  18. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    on what drugs are you guys? /facepalm
     
  19. Demented

    Demented Member

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    Is that addressed to me and my invisible friends, or is it something you couldn't edit into your other post 5 minutes prior?
     
  20. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    We already have wallhax from com targets. Also wallhax are less of a benefit in Empires because most of our maps are wide open spaces rather than urban congestion.

    I used the 'widely available' criteria more in consideration of the intent of the people making these things. If you are personally creating hacked textures to give you a private advantage, then your intent is to cheat. However, if you remove an annoying aspect of a model and release it publicly on the Empires forums, then your are not cheating IMO. There is a subtle, but important distinction, between modding things for private advantage vs. improvement of the mod in general that I believe can be determined by whether or not you post it on these forums.
     

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