Turrets can be damaged by infantry weapons, yes/no?

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Sgt.Security, Mar 1, 2016.

?

Infantry weapons should deal damage to turrets?

  1. Yes

  2. No

  3. I am not sure

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  1. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Just like camera/radar.
    It's pretty intuitive that you can damage a turret with your infantry weapons.

    We have seen maybe 1000 newbs firing their infantry weapons at a turret.
    Good jokes, we laughed at them, maybe we corrected them.
    But really, that's just how unintuitive Empires is.

    Obviously, I will give turrets a relatively high resist to bullets, like walls & vehicle weapons.
    It won't be efficient to try to kill a turret with your infantry weapons.
    I am thinking maybe a whole mag of HMG for a turret.

    My vote is yes, simply because this makes empires more intuitive.
     
  2. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    I'd prefer hit indication, or squads will be wrecking turret farms, very little point in building them if infantry can take them down from draw distance.
     
  3. TheCreeper

    TheCreeper Member

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    Hit indication?
     
  4. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    You know, lots of newer shooters have some indication on the crosshair when you have hit something.
    Not a big fan of it really - but that is how every other shooter does the whole intuitive thing - the crosshairs are "contextual" - They go red when you point at friendlies, they have a little extra "x" when you score a hit, etc.

    I get that it is probably more work - but otherwise I'd just leave alone, why add another problem or thing to consider to balance around new players. They'll work it out.

    Even if you make it so one person has to use say 5 clips to take down a turret - what about when there are 5 people with an ammo box. Turret farms would go down at a similar speed toa nuke tank. If you nerf it any more than that then you may as well not do it at all anyway.
     
  5. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    TL;DR : this is NOT adding an efficient way for you to take down turrets.

    Keep in mind that turrets will have really high resistance. Camera has 0.75 resist, I'll probably give turret AT LEAST 0.97. That's 3333 effective hp.

    If you have an ammo box, shooting at a turret is fucking retarded, allow me to be straight.
    An entire squad concentrating on turrets by shooting at them? GG no re.

    If it's close/mid range, there are already so many ways for a squad to efficiently take down turrets.
    If it's long range, considering accuracy & engi repair & high resistance , it's pretty pointless to try to shoot a turret.

    As vets, we have a dozen of ways to efficiently kill a turret.
    Newbs? It's pretty intuitive that your bullets can at least damage the turret.

    Oh and, I would like to see your reasons, especially if you voted no.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
  6. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    But you are still opening up destroying turrets to 2 new classes with pure line of sight (Scout and Rifleman's current effectiveness vs turrets is limited currently).

    So either the resist is SO high that they may as well be impervious to bullets - making the whole thing a pointless endeavor, or yes - a squad of people shooting at turrets is going to happen. If 1 person CAN take out a turret with a gun then 5 people WILL take out turrets with guns. Much easier to hit a turret at range with SMG1 / rifle than with Seismics, especially on an incline or if it is built atop something.

    If you allow damage to turrets by small arms what do you expect to happen? People will shoot at turrets & new players will see that and do the same. Which would be fine I guess - if that was a design decision you actually wanted. I don't see all new players running around shooting at turrets constantly to the point where I think it warrants a fundamental game change, or see it as a huge problem in any case.

    I'm sorry this makes no sense to me. If it is in any way viable to kill turrets with guns everyone will do it. At the very least you are going to increase the amount of turrets that can be taken down by any person of any class without resupply. It just imbalances the established play but I see no upside. This is just a nerf to turrets, no matter how high you set the resist & if it is so high as to negate all the problems I'm talking about then why add it at all. New players will learn, someone will tell them.

    The correct way to address this issue along with all the other "identification problems" of who is on my team, is that my commander, is that a friendly tank, am I doing damage, etc - is with hit indication & "mouse over" effects on the crosshairs. The way every other game has done it since ever. I'm assuming we don't have those features currently, but its the only smart way to solve all those kinds of problems. Sorry dude, but I think this is an answer to a question no-one asked & it is 1 step forward, 2 steps back.

    If a whole squad of people shooting at turrets is "fucking retarded" then what is one person shooting at a turret? Surely a complete waste of time that you would not wish to encourage, so why turn it on at all? What is to be gained? A new player will be able to do 10% damage to a turret and be more inclined to do it?

    I just don't see it.
     
  7. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    Sorry I could have done all that in like 1 sentance:

    Small arms vs turrets is either game breaking for turrets, or such minor damage change as to be completely pointless, with the added draw back that Everyone will shoot at turrets in the hope of getting more points.
     
  8. ViroMan

    ViroMan Black Hole (*sniff*) Bully

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    I see both points of this argument and currently don't have an opinion either way.
     
  9. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I don't approve "It's either this or that".

    In fact, 96~97% resistance is right between "useless" and "useful".

    3 seismics, 3 mortars, 6 HE nades, 3 RPGs, full calculator charge, 2 sticky grenades and around 350 vehicle weapon damage.

    When you CAN utilize things above, you should. If you can and you don't, that's being inefficient and how I spell retarded.
    But when you can't and/or the turret is low on health, here's another option.
    I don't see why this little feature would be the end of world for turrets.

    IMO this adds more intuitive ways for anyone to fight against turrets and I feel that's healthy for our gameplay.
     
  10. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    96-96% resist doesn't tell me much - How long is it going to take 1 person to kill a 100% healthy turret?
    I just don't get why allowing roffles and scouts to kill turrets from outside the turrets effective range is good for business.
    Even if it takes a whole minute to kill a turret with a gun - that means that in a minute or two a squad could level a turret farm & make 10 points, from behind a wall, without ever getting inside a turrets range.

    I just think that it is very easily done, anyone can do it whenever they see a turret. Therefore it will stack very well with existing methods and turret farms will become liabilities.
     
  11. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    96% is 2500 effective hp. 97% is 3333 effective hp.
    (100/(1-resist))=effective hp
    That's around 3 or 4 magazines of BEHR.

    Currently, using the weapons I listed, a squad can already kill turret out of its range with almost zero difficulty.
    This feature won't make it even easier to kill turrets, so I don't think your downside will happen.
    They won't really stack wth each other, when you are throwing seismics you aren't shooting at it.

    Upside, like I said, makes this game a little more intuitive.
     
  12. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I dunno, I feel like firing off rpgs would be a much faster method of killing turrets then shooting them with say the behr, especially when I know not all those shots from the behr are going to hit, so it'll take a few more mags to actually kill a turret. It takes like 5 seconds to full spray and reload the behr, compared to just a tad more the 3 to just fire the rpg, and like I said you know no one is going to hit anything by fully spraying with behr.

    I will say I feel like if people see you can damage turrets with guns you should be able to damage with vehicle mgs, it's something to think about.

    Last thought is when I use turrets I have zero expectations of it actually defending anything, I just use them to slow the enemy down. Therefore if people are wasting more time shooting them instead of just killing them with anything else then it sounds like a buff in a way to me.

    Last last thought is that scouts can simply sab shit, if you were looking ot take out entire farms scouts really are the best because they don't have to rely on any extra ammo or someone else to drop a wall, they certainly won't be doing it by shooting it with a scout rifle, that truly would be a waste of time.
     
  13. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    Well, then I hope people who have been shooting turrets with bullets until now figure out that its not very effective. Or it would just encourage turret bullet shooting. ("oh look, its doing something!"...talking about some hit indication)
    One good thing about turrets was, that it could pretty much completely stop certain classes and vehicles and you needed help from other class ( yes, I get teamwork is hard to achieve xD ) Might be good and bad.
    And yeah, turrets mostly just slow enemies down, so you got more time to get them effectively

    Just if you do it, make it quite uneffective, but then If you care about intuitiveness, then it should somehow in some way indicate that its not very effective.
    Those shooting turrets with bullets currently dont know if its doing something, if you put some kind of indication that its doing damage, you will probably just see more people doing it, but then if its not effective, how to show them that?
    ( if they couldnt figure out that its not doing anything, how will they figure out that its just bad to do it? xD )

    I just generally think that people shooting turrets with bullets arent a huge problem and its part of the game you need to figure out. Or are you also gonna make bullets damage vehicles as well?
    Iam just not sure if its a good idea to make something that is intuitive also uneffective without somehow getting this message to the player.
    Right now they will probably after few tryes figure out that its not doing anything, but if sometimes a new player will actually manage to take some turrets or already damaged turrets down, he might as well just do more of it.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2016
  14. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    So it is a very unappealing proposition for one person to attack a turret- Yet a significant force multiplier for 3+ people in a squad.
    Thats my main problem with it - to prevent it being OP when there is a coordinated squad it needs to be nerfed so hard it is nearly useless for a single person, but when you add a few people you are going to see turrets going down much quicker.

    What is the business case for this change?
    On the one hand you say that we have plenty of better ways to take down turrets - so it isn't really needed.
    But you say it is to make the game more intuitive, so maybe that is the reason behind making this change? in which case it allows new players that are making a mistake to contribute in the smallest of ways? But then it rarely is a problem & even so all that is likely to happen is that people will just tell them (as they do now with RPGs vs buildings) that it isn't really worth doing and they are wasting their time.

    For sure this game isn't that intuitive in some ways but it isn't that difficult. The way to make things more intuitive is to improve the UI and features to reflect it.
    It was not immediately clear why buildings wouldn't place until recently. For example say a ref would not place because of a scout nearby - the solution was to add a UI notification that said the same, not to just allow building placement anyway.

    What about vehicle MGs? Because if my 9mm pistol can damage a turret I'm pretty sure my .50cal should too if we are talking along the lines of what is common sense, but surely that would make APCs over powered.

    I just fee like the only time it would be useful at all is when an inf squad are pushing a base - which is probably the very last time you want infantry to be able to take out your turrets twice as fast.
     
  15. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    That squad would do it much faster with grens. We think sure it's a hit scan weapon and it fires fast, but you can't fire fast if you actually want to hit the turret at some what reasonable range. It would take longer to empty out say the behr then to simply pop off an rpg. It's kinda like trying to hit other tanks afar with du, it just doesn't work really.
     
  16. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    I'm not saying this is worse than a squad of grens firing at your turret farm, of course not.
    But there are other things to consider, I'm not thinking about it purely in isolation - numbers alone are irrelevant. You are not going to see an entire squad of grens in the game.
    In a typical squad with 1 gren + 4 other people all shooting at turrets (that normally wouldn't) I think it is still going to equate to chewing through turrets in 1/2 the time.
    If it doesn't make a difference having 4 people all targetting a turret then it is going to do basically nothing for 1 person which makes it kind of useless anyway.

    My whole point is that very low damage to turrets from guns is only a feature worth using if you are doing it as a squad. It certainly can't be considered productive use of time for a single person.
    I'm not even sure that is a bad thing, maybe everyone should be able to take down turrets. Or maybe something completely different - maybe turrets can only be disabled by damage & an engineer is required to recycle the base to completely remove it, or a friendly engineer can come and rebuild it.

    Just that it doesn't really make anything more intuitive and it doesn't fix any existing problems. Maybe it will improve gameplay anyway, I don't know. I just don't the reasoning behind it if apparently we have better ways to take down turrets and it is going to be so ineffective so to be kind of pointless anyhow.
     
  17. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    giving turrets health will make people shoot them more

    might as well make vehicles get hurt by infantry weapons then
    e: and walls shouldnt be taken down by bullets either
     
  18. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    I can already hear Mr.X. complaining about the buffed snipers quickscoping his turrets.

    I would prefer if turrets had better collisions so that we can shoot through them.
     
  19. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I'd rather look at it at in a "how does this benefit me?" kinda of deal. If you stop thinking about fully built turrets/turret farms its a bit easier to see where shooting turrets can come in handy even if you know better. What I'm talking about is delaying an engineer building a turret, so you can close the distance and shoot them, or shoot smoking ones that have taken damage from other sources like tanks.

    I feel like making it so infantry can shoot turrets really just allows a (fully built)turret to slow down the enemy a tad more, due to how much more time is spent shooting them compared to anything else. On that notion I feel like this might be nice, because it still gives a couple of options to people needing to get past a damaged turret.

    I'm honestly indifferent about it being added though, the only concern is vehicle mgs being able to shoot turrets because it feels like they should too if infantry weapons can damage them. Saying small arms can damage tanks is silly though complete, I can't think of another game that does that besides rts games.
     
  20. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    I would like it if turrets could be damaged by high caliber weapons only. But that requires code support of course x) Another complicated damage type. a bullet that doesn't damage vehicles damages deployable stuff.
     

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