Thread Of Atheism

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by ViroMan, Mar 31, 2012.

  1. =PVCS) Cpatton

    =PVCS) Cpatton Member

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    Unless you adopt a culture of a cold rational treatment of the observable world, in which case, you will be delighted to adopt anything so long as it is supported by a cold rational treatment of the observable world.

    boom.
     
  2. Deiform

    Deiform Member

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    I think a utopian society has gone past Atheism as it stands at the moment. I see myself more as an Apatheist. One who does not give a shit if a god exists or not.

    As BigTeef said, Atheism has turned into just as big of an extremist movement as the actual religions. A lot of Richard Dawkins lectures to religious groups don't actually achieve anything due to both sides sitting firmly in their camps. The entire pretense for religious education should be moved to solving scientific and societal problems logically.

    In addition, from what I've read and seen from the American education system, far too much emphasis is on reward based systems, which encourages this kind of behaviour where both sides will fight each other in 'debates' in order to 'win'. That's not going to help anyone.
     
  3. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    Such good posts have no business being put in Offtopic.
     
  4. -=]Kane[=-

    -=]Kane[=- Member

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    Apatheism doesn't solve anything though, it's more used as an insult by theists for agnostics than anything, too, utopian society ... as if, people are not shallow enough to stop caring about their origin.
     
  5. Deiform

    Deiform Member

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    Well that's why it's called utopian. There's a difference between caring about origin/history and holding onto things past their due date. When you dig right down into the core of society, it matters not if a deity exists when the main principles are exactly the same.

    Sure, if there was a deity that said it's a fight to the death and the last man standing gets in then we'd have a problem. But since all religions are based on primitive laws of conduct for societies without means to enforce themselves (such as police), they all have the underlying pretense that humans should be kind to each other.

    Religion is not the problem, it's the people taking parts of the texts literally (and those people that fight too hard to destroy the texts).
     
  6. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

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    200 years later French intellectuals like Deif are still ahead of their contemporaries. I honestly wish people would understand exactly what you're saying, but let's be real, the only reason viroman keeps adding to this thread is not because he gives a shit about religion but because in his comfy 21st century yuppy life he wants to rebel against some faceless authority figures and man made text.
     
  7. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    I've shilled Apatheism like 6 times in this thread already. Get with the times.
     
  8. Deiform

    Deiform Member

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    My bad. Also there's some weird theory that Spanish is going to overtake English in the linguist dominance war. I'd like it to be French though, the grammatical rules are way easier to memorise than English.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  9. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    None reads your wall of texts. Learn to condense points.
     
  10. =PVCS) Cpatton

    =PVCS) Cpatton Member

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    Maybe so in your country? Although with the whole Charlie Hebdo thing, I would say religion in one form or another is still a problem.

    My main problem with your passing it off as the same either way is that there are people that blow others (and themselves up). More subtle are people who shun others and squash their dreams based on religious belief.

    I've had my hard work nearly squashed because of it in the USA. Here, in a recently very seriously Christian nation and now still highly christian in some large swaths, it's not so easy, it's not so passive, and it can't be ignored. People *notice* if you aren't in church on Sunday, and they exclude. It's not a lifestyle choice, it's mandatory, and that's where it's different, where the main principles are not exactly the same: they are the complete opposite.

    ---

    But I think most of all, Atheism is completely misunderstood. I don't mind if people insist they are agnostic because they see something meaningful in that distinction for emphasizing that you don't know, but I think more than anything people have accepted the religious definition of athiesm, that it is an attribute ONLY to the completely sure, the totally convinced, those that KNOW and the therefore extreme, and the vocal.

    The question of whether you are an atheist is much more benign. Do you believe in god(s)? No? That's athiesm. It's not that you KNOW there is no God (that's silly, no one knows one way or another, hence "faith" and "belief"), it's not that you believe there is no God (although if you don't believe there is one... well :P). It's just that you don't believe in god.

    Agnostic (unsure), sure we all are. Because any ___theism is about belief, not knowledge. It's just not about knowledge, at all. But non-theist? Apatheist? Why create more labels, to split a group, to avoid the sound of the sharp inhales of breath from any theist when you say the word? It's eactly that kind of instant judgement we need to fight against, not by being vocal or angry or persistent that they accept you, but neither by placating people by never using the word again. The nuts need to learn to live with the calmly practical, and neither needs to freak out.

    I have no problem with theists existing, if they have no problem with me going about my business too. I dont bring it up unless some one asks. I'm an athiest. What's the big deal?:|
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  11. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    Sounds like you should go to a better state.

    Because they're all distinct. Non-theist refers to the lack of belief in one or more deities. But certain religions, such as pantheism, are non-theistic. Apatheism isn't atheistic because it doesn't reject the idea of a deity, and it's not theistic either because it doesn't accept the existence of a deity. It rejects the relevancy of the entire subject, which is a different matter altogether. These are labels splitting a group as much as distinguishing between Judaism and Islam splits theistic groups.
     
  12. =PVCS) Cpatton

    =PVCS) Cpatton Member

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    I guess I dont agree That the splits are anywhere near the same order of magnitude. The split btw religions is noted by culture, heredity, texts, traditions, beliefs, rituals...

    The difference btw all the things that you mentioned, are further descriptors of one's non-belief. It's like saying do you believe in god? No, *but let me sing the song of my people so you may understand just what level of No*.

    But yea ok. I cede the differences. It's just weird I think, when the question comes up we reach for words to describe our level of athiesm. In religion, sure there are different levels and sects, but they aren't described in a single word and completely remove themselves from the main group. An orthodox Jew is still a Jew, an apathetic Christian is still a Christian, they may marginalize their own devotion in a sentence, but they do not seperately their identity from the group, in my limited experience with the church anyways.

    Also that's not my state, at least not where I live. But I know that shit happens. I've watched it happen first hand in Kansas. I've heard about more all through the bible belt, and much worse. Church is as much about "self herding" characteristics as anything else.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  13. Fooshi

    Fooshi For fuck's sake Fooshi

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    Holy fuck, you people got baited hard.
     
  14. Deiform

    Deiform Member

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    The problem with atheism is that it is a belief that there is no deity in existence. The point is that it should make no difference whether there is or there is not. A belief in no god is just as bad as a belief in one due to the fact that it is a belief. There's no way to prove it one way or another, and in a way that affects your everyday life it doesn't matter at all.

    Would you act differently to other people if you believe there is a god? You shouldn't unless you are a sociopath. No religious texts condone violence so there *should* be no difference.

    Would you act differently to other people if you believe there isn't a god? No, because you're under the same set of rules. An atheist is just as fanatical with the belief that their belief actually matters.

    Therefore it seems utterly pointless to have a view on anything regarding a deity, thus apatheism. The only problem is the people that interpret the religious texts or non-texts as a means to condone violence. Of which none do.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  15. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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  16. -=]Kane[=-

    -=]Kane[=- Member

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    Apatheism doesn't mean you just don't give a fuck about the existence of some outerworldly power but also about religion, no? That would be quite the topic to ignore, with roman catholic child molesters and sharia law abiding mulim terrorists, the violation of female rights and freedom based on several religious text and many more.
    There's more reasons to decide for or against religion than the mere belief in some higher power.
    What ... you serious? I can understand where you're coming from with apatheism, but this??? French grammar is hard as fuck to learn, while english grammar is like 10 sub- and prefixes and a few words you need to put at places and you're done.
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  17. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    How ironic coming from this guy of all people.
     
  18. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    I dont even know what youre getting at. Female rights in muslim world? Fair enough, but what in the fuck does catholicism itself have to do with child molesting???
    Its better than chinese.
     
  19. =PVCS) Cpatton

    =PVCS) Cpatton Member

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    Ok and I get that, but I think you are taking belief too strongly, and again that is conditioning from theists and how they are taught to believe strongly.

    Scientists have beliefs. They have theories, unproven ones, and they either believe the evidence justifies the theories or does not. For gravity for instance, evidence is pretty darn strong. String theory, wormholes... evidence fits, but not necessarily unexplainable by something else. It's important to note that while evidence is great, evidence that fits a theory does not necessarily mean the theory is right. In terms of Newtonian physics, the vast majority of immediate evidence fit the theory but it turned out to be not quite right, and yielded to relativity. Belief is something still held in our human nature even when interpreting incomplete evidence, and we still form opinions.

    Which, really is the thrust of it. An opinion, for those of us who are not theists. I have an opinion that none of these gods are real. It's my opinion, I don't put any faith or stock or in the "belief", and even Dawkins will repeat over and over that there is simply a lack of evidence, and therefore no reason to believe it. Were that to change then his opinion might as well. Same with me, I consider the evidence for my opinions.

    I have no need of faith because as you said, I act no differently. But call it belief, opinion, whatever, it differs in that I distinctly do not act according to a scripture or ritual defined by a religion. I don't go to church, I don't pray, I don't feel the need to find more meaning where I *have the opinion* no meaningful meaning is to be found.

    I guess, I consider that we share that opinion, though it requires no faith, no belief, and no action differently from our normal moral and ethical interactions. a belief is an opinion and thus apatheism and agnosticism share in the opinion. Because if you didn't share the opinion that there is no diety, you would pray. you chose an answer. Despite that it may be silly to have an opinion on it, you still have one.

    And why, for the love of math, is it terribly bad to have opinions on silly things?

    EDIT: I will say that you are right though. A strong, completely stubborn, irrational *faith* (lol) that there is no God is just as bad as faith that there is one. How many people do you think are oi UT there that would take it to the extremes you suggest though? And are those extremes, in your opinion, including debating? Is that so extreme as to be "just as bad"? Because I can have an agnostic perspective, and still want to tell off anone who would send their child to electroshock therapy for being homosexual. I mean, if an athiest parent beat the shit out of their child if they joined a church, I'd be as definitely against that too but... do you expect that to be a thing that the term "athiest" should be defined by?
     
    Last edited: Apr 18, 2015
  20. -=]Kane[=-

    -=]Kane[=- Member

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    There's just that many cases of child abuse going on you gotta ask yourself if a company (the vatican in this case) really should exist if it empowers so many sick individuals.
     

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