The reason why people "think" NF/BE heavy tanks are imbalanced.

Discussion in 'General' started by Sgt.Security, Jun 10, 2016.

  1. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    The reason is extremely simple : HE cannon overused.

    Let's take a quick look at the weapons.
    HE Cannon : Anti-infantry/vehicle/building. 12 seconds damage : 490 12 seconds heat gen : 84
    Ranged Cannon : Anti-vehicle/building. +10 weight than HE. 12 seconds damage : 540 12 seconds heat gen : 72
    Rail Gun : Anti-vehicle/building. +20 weight than HE. 12 seconds damage : 650, 12 seconds heat gen : 91

    I really don't have to explain this, you have absolutely zero excuse when you researched ONLY HE and you lost the game to "OP" NF heavy tanks.

    NF heavy tanks(Guided/Shotgun) are single-point DPS machine(with small explosion radius) specifically designed for vehicle combat, I don't know why people HAD TO use HE cannon against them.

    I am not saying you should abandon HE, but at least get ranged/rail at some point, you might magically realize that tanks are not THAT imbalanced.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  2. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    i think the real question is why are people researching HE when rails is in the same tree as reactive and beside 3phase

    also i think nf is still op even when be gets rails
     
  3. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    Come on Security, this is the biggest shitpost of a thread you've made so far.

    Yes, HE is bad at killing tanks. Yes, rails do a little more damage. NF tanks are still better - dual guided/homing is very, very strong right now, and you should calculate the damage for that and then add to the fact that rails can miss and missiles won't.
     
  4. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Missiles don't miss.
    Right. Cool. Didn't know that.
    UML Salvo are all dumb-fire and are much slower than cannons, I wonder why they don't miss.
    Guided ML misses because you guys are not using aimbot, Homing ML(not salvo) misses because of the low turning rate and high speed.

    You conveniently ignored or forgot the fact that missiles have to reload and cannons don't.
    For example Guided has a reload time of 6 seconds, 6 fucking seconds, do you know how long that is in a vehicle combat?

    I observed and played a lot of games recently and I specifically paid attention to the research.

    For most of the games where BE collapsed, they got HE and only HE.

    As for the games that BE researched ranged/rail, things turned out much more even.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  5. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    There's a lot more missile variety then cannon variety, considering meds are usually gotten every game it's not terribly surprising to see be get the same weapon every game. Add a 2 slot cannon to bio or revert plasma to a 2 slot weapon, something, it would help.

    You may say that doesn't matter, but chemistry is such a convenient research tree with all it's weapons it's pretty much a go to tree for commanders. That and he with it being light and well rounded enough you can pair it up with anything makes it super nice to have even if it's not as effective against tanks as the other cannons.

    All that said I don't really see nf op, at most because mls have a shorter cycle time and higher burst damage it might feel like it's easier to pop a be heavy compared to BE having to sustain damage over what feels like a longer period of time.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  6. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    Plasma should be a two slot weapon. The fact it isn't is so fucking stupid. Or why not have 2 - a 3 slot plasma cannon and a 2 slot plasma ML? Something to make it so plasma is relevant mid game.
     
  7. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Plasma not currently a 2 slot makes sense when you consider it's previous incarnations and what people wanted it to be, but now that it's not as strong as previously it should be a 2 slot again, maybe with a slight nerf to damage or something considering it feels a bit better then ranged cannon. Or maybe not, it's twice the heat of ranged...
     
  8. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    We are actually planning to create a 2-slot version for most 3-slot weapons & 3-slot version for most 2-slot weapons.
     
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  9. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Eww gross.
     
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  10. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    Any other version id note how be tanks destroy infantry whereas nf tanks are straight helpless, but its a moot point as of now.
     
  11. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    because they are, NF heavy in a good players hands is clearly better, but BE heavy with HE or rails is just brainless "everyone can be 1337" victory...
     
  12. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    Buildings do have greater resistances against kinetic damage right?
     
  13. A-z-K

    A-z-K Member

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    Just give both tanks a single cannon and ml slot. Balance weapons accordingly, make 3 slot varieties of existing 2 slot cannons.
     
  14. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    and 1slot variants? do LTs/AFVs get some love aswell?
     
  15. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    No, it's the same as missiles, for most weapons the default resist is 85%. Explosive weapons like ugl and he cannon have increased resists, for most things it's 90%.

    This is a good thing, considering he and ugl's splash damage able to hit multiple buildings, unlike ranged or rails.

    So in security's example he cannon would do 49 damage to buildings in 12 seconds, ranged would do 81 damage in 12 seconds, and rails would do 97 in the same 12 seconds. Admittedly due to rounding and things these might be off by a point or 2, but it's good enough to show effectiveness against buildings. Plasma has a separate resist called general_physics, but for everything I think it's the same as kinetic so plasma does the same damage as ranged cannon against buildings, just with much much higher heat gen.
     
    Last edited: Jun 10, 2016
  16. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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    NF heavies are far more OP for this reason, from what I've gathered while playing:

    On open maps, NF gets Guided Salvo or just guided/homing missles meaning even IF you try to run away, they can still EASILY kill you while BE has to have basically snipers to land a shot on wide open maps. This gives NF a big advantage as they can start hitting from a far range with pinpoint accuracy.

    On close quarter maps, IE slaughtered, BE heavies are again out done. The standard build for BE in this case is Dual ER and DU/HEMG which gets destroyed by dual salvo HEMG NF heavies. Literally, 2 salvos destroys an entire side of 5 plated composite armor and then the HEMG just finishes you off. BE heavies in this case have to land continual shots on one side of the tank making it harder for BE to get the "effective" killshots.

    BE just seems... disadvantaged when the enemy has a type of weapon that can lock on from far range, or effectively taking a shot gun to the chest at point blank range. The only time I see BE heavies win 1 on 1 (with two competent players) is when the BE heavy engages at a medium range first and lands a couple hits more than the NF heavy. In this time, the NF heavy is either retreating to lock on or full on charge mode to fire two salvos against the side of your tank.
     
  17. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    It's all lies. It's just that often we use BE heavies as NF heavies, while they have their own way. Missiles can be avoided. Shells not so easily. Dual cannons eat armour just as fast. I find that having only 2 cannons on primary fire lets you concentrate more on avoiding missiles and driving around to damage only one side of the enemy tank. Sometimes it frustrates me when I have 3 weapons. I end up using only two of them and when I realise I wonder why the hell I'm not firing my cannon, because hemg and missile fire straight so u need to aim at different angle when they are at medium range etc.

    On 1v1 it's easy to kill a fat slow-turning nf tank. "easy" ... both have their chances to win.

    That's the assymetry in empires. Maybe NF heavy feels more like a heavy and maybe BE heavies are harder to use, but they work
     
  18. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i barely ever use more than 2 differnt weapons on anything other than lights its just too much weight.

    the thing with guided is, if the map allows to play the range its really bad for the opponent.
    or maybe all my enemies had shite armor, thats the other option.
    also reactive seems to be not that bad of an armor and 3phase is 3phase.
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2016
  19. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    guided sucks lmao
     
  20. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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    BE dual cannons may eat armor, but they can turn and avoid your fire while NF heavies can continually lock and go. Not even commenting about the shotgun dual salvos that eat tank armor, NF heavies are just more fit for up close and far away combat because shells are "hard" to aim whereas the NF heavy has an auto guided system. It really depends on the research, but it always seems a BE heavy that can take on 4 meds alone loses to 1 NF dual salvo heavy.
     

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