The new infantry weapons - Good or Bad?

Discussion in 'General' started by Empty, Dec 13, 2008.

?

Are the new guns good or bad?

  1. Good

    66 vote(s)
    53.7%
  2. Bad

    57 vote(s)
    46.3%
  1. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    OH MY GOD.
    Oh really infantry battle are decided but who ever shoots first? WHY WOOBELY DO! How can you seriously use this as an argument for your sake? Weapons kills. That means that IRL when you shoot first you win. And if feels more fair that if you shoot first that the enemy should die, instead of him getting the oppertunity to empty half his clip in to you before dying?

    Lets have two scenarios and judge them.
    Lets say i advance rifleman in a corridor, i am walking sighted, one enemy comes around the corner, i fire he dies. Then another one comes around the corner, i again fire first and he dies.

    VS

    I advance in a corridor, i see an enemy i shoot first i empty my whole clip in to him, he emptys half his clip in to me leaving me with half my hp and the enemy dead. Now comes the second enemy around the corner, i shoot first but sence i am damaged i die and he lifes but damaged.

    Which scenario sounded more fun and realistic?

    The truth is that weapon damage are not something that should be used to encourage teamwork, high damage weapons means that your team automaticly need to cover each other and have high fire readiness to win, like IRL and it is more fun.


    PS.
    I don't understand why devs lower weapons damage, they did it in TS 3.0 to, and the effect was exactly the same as here. The importance of skill was reduced sence you could always fire back at your enemy even if he got you with two shoots, and they remove bonuses for players who got a kill streak.
    Result? The fun of playing the game cut by 50% and veterans fled, noobs flooded servers, game popularity plumed like a fucking rock in to water.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2008
  2. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    In 2.12 one rifleman was able to kill every single enemy on a chokepoint alone.
    It wasnt about thinking "what should i do" it was just about point and klick.
    Totaly boring after some rounds. If you can click a Icon on your windows
    desktop you had the skill to be a good rifleman in 2.12. And no I dont whine
    and bitch because I couldnt fight against those rifle whores, I was one of them
     
  3. Zeke

    Zeke Banned

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    i pwn'd u.

    ^^
     
  4. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    I let you cause I love u :P
     
  5. Beerdude26

    Beerdude26 OnThink(){ IsDownYet(); }

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    The Specialists had teamwork elements? I just thought it was a free-for-all :|

    Anyway, don't expect the balance to stay this way. But think of it as a warning sign that in the future versions of Empires, soloers will still get their asses handed to them (albeit perhaps not in such an extreme fashion as now)
     
  6. Dawgas

    Dawgas Banned

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    but forcing teamwork will kill Empires, and doom it to having NO PLAYERS


    I like large games :(
     
  7. Goose

    Goose Member

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    Empires is one of the few games that still require teamwork.
    I think more people prefer a team based game rather than a solo experience.
     
  8. Goose

    Goose Member

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    If you can aim then yes this should be the case.
    L2P and if you are in a corridor and have the first shot you can win in this version as well. You just need to learn how to aim.

    The truth is that weapon damage are not something that should be used to encourage teamwork, high damage weapons means that your team automaticly need to cover each other and have high fire readiness to win, like IRL and it is more fun.
    [/QUOTE]

    Damage should be one of the things to encourage teamwork. A high damage weapon that you speak of that would encourage players to roll together to provide cover is a joke. Back before the old assault rifles could kill a whole squad with 1 clip. Now you just cant rambo in and kill all 5 guys. You need to take your time, pick your shots, use cover.

    Its Great.
     
  9. Lockhart

    Lockhart Member

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    Stop posting teamwork BS. Team games now are a group of individuals doing a good job at each of their tasks. If the tasks aren't fun or effective then the game obviously has a flaw. Infantry combat weapons don't do enough damage for individuals to defend themselves let alone kill at medium to long distances. Stop giving poor excuses for having shitty weapons.
     
  10. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Firstoff you can still kill groups of people,
    but you need to aim and you need to get
    some cover/suprise.
    Second I had the best teamwork experiences
    of empires with the new version.
    The weapons do damage and you can kill infantry
    it just seems like you are not talented in doing it.

    Stop trolling the forums and blame
    everything else because you cannot
    adapt to different gaming enviroments.

    thanks
     
  11. Dr. Rockso

    Dr. Rockso Member

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    I'm still getting used to these new weapons. I dont really have a concrete opinion yet on most of them, especially since some of my exploration of them came about as I was fighting with people on the other side of the planet on a server where I had a ping of around 15. The only weapons I have used more then passingly so far are engineer weapons, I noticed that NF smg2 seems weaker then it used to be, to the point of having to adjust my playstyle. I can kill with it NP of course when I get the jump or can circle behind somebody but for a head on fight, it seems to suck, especially compared to the BE smg2 which I have absolutely NP with.
    Like the other night I was NF engy causing hell in enemy base, 2 enemies are after me so I deek them out around their vf, they both enter the vehicle building room so I decon for one tic then switch back to Smg2 while they rush towards the noise looking for an easy kill. They both enter my field of view headfirst, I am burst firing into their heads from like 2 feet away, and even though neither of them were prefiring or even aiming at me when they first exited the building they both lived. Aaaaah!
    If engies arent supposed to really be able to kill head on, thats fine with me TBH I was surprised at how powerful they are when I picked up this mod, but maybe its me and I am doing something wrong? Should I be firing somewhere else then at heads or what? And also the BE smg2 kills Np at all. If it has been nerfed I sure havent noticed it.
    The other day I was playing (engy as usual) and we were pushing enemy main hard and one of my squaddies was trying to get a turret up at their rax after we killed the infantry and tanks ect, some spawn so to buy time (and waste some ammo)for mr industrious behind me and the other guy repairing his afv I RAN towards 4 of them streaming out of the rax while firing, I killed 2 almost instantly and did enough damage to the third to get them with a few pistols shots before I am gunned down and head to the afterlife with a smile on whats left of my face as I hear the turret firing. But those nf were *All* firing at me, I wasnt even trying to dodge I was running in a straight line, 2 of them were even crouched. I dont know what kind of guns they had but wow, if what I described isnt abnormal in 2.2 nf engies are going to have it rough.

    Of course I am still relatively new so my experiences could be tainted by the fog of nub.
     
    Last edited: Dec 17, 2008
  12. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    NF and BE smgs are exactly the same
     
  13. vrooom

    vrooom Member

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    The SMG1 is supposed to suck compared to the SMG2 at close range, and vice versa for long range.
     
  14. Iselore

    Iselore Member

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    I hated the new weapons at first because it seemed hard to kill people Now I've gotten used to them and I feel they're much better now. You actually have to aim more properly now and yea, as said before now shooting first now doesn't ensure you kill him first too. Previously, an SMG could also take out riflemen from a distance too but now it's more balanced. But I feel the SMGs need more power to fulfill it's close range capabilities since it can't really be used for long range anymore. The Carbine is excellent for taking out camping whor3s or unaware engineers. The machine pistol is my only complaint, I still prefer the heavy pistol. The scout rifle could be like a Steyr Scout to kill in two shots and one for a headshot.
     
  15. vrooom

    vrooom Member

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    I think the point is the devs don't want anyone using it as any sort of a sniper rifle. I believe they are replacing it with a shotgun of some sort.
     
  16. Tuxu

    Tuxu Member

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    naa, this poll should have been:

    * good
    * bad
    * lol

    I would have vote *lol.

    now really, how long is it till 2.21? hmm?

    ffs, mayama.
    yes, roflman were killorz !but! they WERE killable, all it took is some sense...
    ...and the lev3 trt made them completely useless.

    - tuxu, 2.1 rifleman hunter extraordinar, retired.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 18, 2008
  17. Lockhart

    Lockhart Member

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    I'm hardly trolling if you paid attention to any of my posts. It kind of ticks me off you'd accuse of of that because I'm trying to help the game out with it's flaws and everyone in favor of the patch, of course, tells you to Get the Fuck Out.

    Anyhow, just stating that weapons do kill people doesn't work. Of course they do. They don't do it effectively. If you set up a match between two engineers at medium distance with both of them strafing to avoid fire while aiming at each other they both spend their entire clip without killing the other. If you compare this to the basic infantry rifles which are decent close range it's very uneven. I can't even fathom why headshots don't kill anymore. And don't say they do, if someone is damaged already and you hit them in the head it will show a headshot, but they were hit first.

    Personally I've had trouble even starting up empires anymore because of it's changes and I've played the game for well over a year now. If you had played a game that long and found that it got ruined by a patch, you'd be pretty damn frustrated too. So knock some sense into yourself and look from the point of view that isn't clouded by "OMFG New Patch! It's brilliant! It is new and it changes things, so it must rock. Wow!"

    Teamwork is irrelevant to what's in the patch. Teamwork is player cooperation. In it's core. That has nothing to do with weapon balance.
     
  18. FN198

    FN198 Member

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    I absolutely loathe all of the new/modified weapons in 2.2 excluding the machine pistol. For the same reasons as most others and then some.

    For one, the rate of fire is so slow, and it takes more than a second to kill someone at medium range. Having come to Empires after playing insurgency in 2007, I fell in love with the power of the weapons in empires. I loved them because they had high rates of fire, high damage per bullet (30-40), and really made killing people FEEL FUN. I felt as if the BEHR was an extension of my hand, and I was able to wave it at my enemies in eloquent gestures. My red crosshair would dart from the center of red diamond to red diamond until all four of them disappeared. The skill required in acknowledging all of your targets, and organically relocating your crosshairs in four delicate motions in the window of a second is immense. I trained hard to master my rifle, and 2.2 threw it all to shit.

    I feel like I'm playing Planetside when im a rifleman in 2.2. I mean this: your weapons do not do lethal damage per 200ms and you must expose yourself to your enemy to deal damage to him. When this situation occurs, standing still, holding your fire and aiming will only put you in a position were your enemy will undoubtably hit you at least once. since the damage has not been nerfed, being hit by a rifle still sucks, but its something you can't easily avoid before killing a rifleman. In 2.12, having that feel, that psychic connection to the other players in the server, feeling their actions and flowing with them. it would seem as if you could slide into a position and get a kill in the following 200ms, and pop back into cover unharmed. This was fun. This was an art. It felt like dribbling against a good player in basketball.

    In planetside, the most skilled players would get the speed upgrade, and "dance" around their less (modem speed) privileged opponents. By dancing, their opponents would have less of a chance to kill them, flailing their mice around madly trying to get a hit. Every miss counted because RoF in planetside was despicable. This way, the skilled player who danced would not be harmed. In 2.2, I've found this VERY EFFECTIVE. The weapon that holds the model of the BEHR i loved so much is still useful, but it is nowhere as fun to use. I do not feel the bond I used to feel. Speed upgrade has replaced accuracy upgrade. I sprint up to the front line and whenever I flank, I dance. moving rapidly from random point to random point around my enemy, running circles around him while fitting him into the fluctuating crosshair of my rifle. As many times as I can, I will aim for the head. After the first victim is dealt with, the next enemy will be my partner for the dance of death. At the end of this i will be dealt 20-50%dmg.

    I predict people will become accustomed to this gun-kata soon, and district will be full of kung fu riflemen. I like moving my crosshair more than i like dodging bullets.

    Every gun the gren has can do lethal damage. the gren pistol used to be decent, now its awesome. I think the more powerful the weapons, the more creative the countermeasures.

    I felt like the rifleman was the one class that was specialized at killing soft things in order to defend engis. now its the same thing with only slightly greater killing power than the classes its purpose is to defend. Rifleman's killing power was its defining attribute. Now that its just as powerful as an engi or scout's firepower, it ceases to be a unique class.
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2009
  19. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    That was something I always said in the playtests and I felt like
    the devs didnt bother about it, imo: A rifleman should be able to
    outgun any other class in any situation or it is just a buffed engi
    (in terms of fighting ability)
     
  20. The Buttery Lobster

    The Buttery Lobster Drama Queen.

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    i just tried the machine pistol for the first time. Fun, but way too little clip. You get 32 extra shots with the shotgun pistol, that's theoretically enough for 13 kills, and actually is 16 clips. You get 2 extra clips (ballpark) for the machine pistol.


    those numbers aren't 100%, don't quote me on that
     

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