The Gold Standard Commander Fix

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by ImSpartacus, May 10, 2015.

  1. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    There was some chatting about fixing the clunkiness of the commander system in Empires on Viper yesterday and some folks were a bit mis guided, so I feel the need to reiterate the gold standard of commander fixes that would streamline gameplay a ridiculous amount.

    In short, the "commander" and the "person in the CV" need to be divorced into two very separate things.

    Note: When each of these terms are used in this post, they have a separate & new definition. They are underlined to emphasize this new definition. These terms are arbitrary and you could just as easily replace what this post calls "commander" as something like "caretaker" in-game. Terminology isn't important.

    Changes

    • Each team has a commander that is voted in at the beginning of any & every match.
    • The commander stays the commander & retains all abilities of the commander regardless if he is or isn't
      • on foot
      • in a vehicle
      • in the command vehicle
      • dead
    • FSspace functionality calls up a new vote for a new commander.
    • It does not effect the person in the CV.
    • The commander can force the person in the CV to leave the CV at any time where ever he might be.
    • The commander can "lock" and "unlock" the CV from being entered at any time where ever he might be.
    • The commander has complete control over squads. This is irrespective of if he is in the CV or if the map even has a CV.
      • He can promote squad members to squad lead.
      • He can kick squad members from their squads.
      • etc.
    • The person in the CV still retains basically all of the previous CV commands
      • He controls research.
      • He can drop buildings.
      • He can give targets.
      • He locks & unlocks the VF.
      • He can build vehicle remotely.
      • etc.

    Improvements

    • This completely and utterly fixes the problem of CV griefing.
    • This completely and utterly fixes the problem of squad management on non-CV maps such as district.

    Note that this is a very old idea and it has been independently developed by numerous people through this game's history. It is the obvious end-point for optimizing a commander system.

    This fix is superior for two very important reasons.

    • It doesn't change gameplay of a typical non-griefing CV map at all. Everything that is "Empires" is still "Empires". This is a big deal.
    • It significantly improves non-CV maps in a way that is so ridiculously elegant that it almost feels accidental.

    To really respect why this is the gold standard of commander fixes, it's helpful to consider the terrible fixes that people temporarily consider before they always converge on the gold standard fix.

    • Any kind of automatic "lock" of the CV when a player leaves it. It's a clunky band-aid that will negatively effect the a typical CV map without significantly improving anything.
    • Any kind of change to only the FSspace system such as tweaking the percentage required to oust someone from the CV. The current FSspace system is fundamentally flawed because of the lag between the actions that necessitate the ousting and the actual ousting. The lag will always exist as long as you need to do an entire vote.

    I have nothing against those two half-fixes. I just heard them yesterday during the discussion. There are others and none of them are new ideas.

    Finally, you're probably thinking, "if this idea is so perfect, why isn't it in the game?" The reason is that it would take a tremendous amount of development resources. I doubt that it will ever be implemented as a result of that, but it's important to remember that there is a "correct" fix and any other inferior half-fix will have some fundamental flaws.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
  2. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    I'd hate this absolute power a single player would have over the rest of their team. Absolutely. Hate it.
     
  3. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    The commander already has all of those powers. You give him those powers via a vote at the beginning and you can take them back with a vote at any time.

    The entirety of that functionality could be identical. It's just no longer bound to the CV.
     
  4. Señor_Awesome

    Señor_Awesome Member

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    The problem I see is players dropping. If the commander drops/leaves for whatever reason, it kind of impacts your team in a not insignificant manner. The matter of voting in a new commander would be a problem - but at least basic functionality could be retained by person in the CV. The worst thing that could happen in this kind of scenario is if a lock on the CV doesn't release (through some glitch or whatever, because it's Empires) when the commander leaves.

    However, I do like the idea of a commander controlling squads in infantry maps - so many squad points wasted over the years. I'd probably get more chances to be upset by the vets that somehow still don't know who I am and promote their buddies to squad lead over me.
     
  5. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    That's a really good point. Presumably a new vote would engage whenever the "commander" leaves that team (by it a full disconnect or ragespecing or otherwise). Sorta like an automatic & instant FSspace, I suppose.

    While that vote is going on, any locks on the CV would presumably be removed and you'd basically be playing as "normal" for those few seconds before the vote finishes.

    There are some fundamental issues with the commander system. You're putting a lot of responsibility in one player. But I think those are unavoidable and they make up what "Empires" is for me.
     
  6. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    This suggestion is neat.

    But the problem is that we have a lot of newb commanders and people can't really fsspace fast enough.
     
  7. Catface

    Catface Member

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    Well, I can't say I am opposed. Even though I have second thoughts about some features, it seems like a far more elegant solution than timers, etc. And an improvement overall.

    Seems a bit annoying. The menu is pretty much in-your-face as it is. Perhaps a notification that there is a new comm vote going on would workbetter? (Press X to vote for a new commander?)

    Well. Originally I was going to suggest something along the lines of the comm being able to appoint someone else as commander. And have it so that no one could get in the CV unless granted access by the previous comm, or if the comm died (thus resetting the ownership).
    This would then be combined with a system where f s space would work as previous, but new comms (that hopped in) would have a lower treshold, which would increased till the normal one after some time (comm gaining legitimacy).

    Though this seems like a far more elegant way of doing it.

    Not really. I am currently working on changes to the existing GUI using the functionality that is already there. I think one of the reasons it wasn't done before is because a lot of previous devs where reluctant to let people work on it when offered.
    Is the current GUI code "bad"? Yeah. Pretty much. But not as bad as people made it out to be.
    There is barely any high-end stuff going on. So if you can see the big picture and properly label/comment everything (which I am doing as well) you suddenly realise it isn't that bad at all.

    Overal, this seems pretty elegant. It fixes griefing, it makes picking a new comm smoother and still keeps the CV relevant as a game mechanic.

    Support.
     
  8. Catface

    Catface Member

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    Also, I guess we can add a way for the comm to initiate a (new) vote in case the person doesn't want to command anymore or has to leave.
     
  9. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Yeah, actual implementation can obviously vary in that kind of manner without tangibly changing the spirit of what's going on.

    You'll hear more or less the same idea with insignificant tweaks (for example, Vicki was basically trying to explain this very idea yesterday on money).
     
  10. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Okay, so if I'm understanding this correctly, there's a Commander who has overriding powers, and someone who controls the RTS functions of the game from the CV?

    So we have a kind of master-slave relationship, where the person in the CV is responsible for facilitating all the actual gameplay as per normal, but someone in the field can tell them they're crap (just like now), boot them out of the CV, and blame them for everything that goes wrong (like now). Except, they actually have a mandate for this from the team.

    It's like the ultimate no-responsibility win relationship. Just like now, someone on the team bitches at you for being not good enough, and yet they won't actually take the CV seat and do any of the hard work, just blame people.

    Except in your version, they can boot you out and get a standing ovation for not doing anything worthwhile.

    Nice. Could you be more selfish?

    Please tell me I'm mistaken.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
  11. Señor_Awesome

    Señor_Awesome Member

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    ... You are not understanding this correctly. The commander and the person in the CV for all intents and purposes will usually be the same person.

    The only difference is if you hop out to build something and some other wanker hops in you can boot them. It's intended to prevent griefing.

    You make me sick with how you think of us.
     
  12. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    I don't see how this is the gold standard if it doesn't fix the numerous plethora of other problems in the game. Maybe it's the gold standard for fixing CV stealing, but not for the commander in general.
     
  13. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    So you're saying Spartacus wrote all that to say that the Commander should have a meta tag that would mark them as having the ability to kick people from the CV?

    And manage squads wherever (except that's barely on the same scale of importance).

    I'm glad. Maybe if people were busy being sick before I wouldn't have had to listen to them talking about dealing with these "sand ******s". And yeah, I can pretty much bring that up any time until it becomes irrelevant.

    If you want to pretend this community has changed over night, go ahead. I'm sure that'll make it easier for people to slip back into old habits, once all the "drama" has died down.
     
  14. Señor_Awesome

    Señor_Awesome Member

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    Yes - these are the two things that he listed in the 'Improvements' part of his post.

    ??? I suppose I should be glad I don't know what you are referring to. I generally ignore the parts of the community that I know to be shitty.
     
  15. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    If that is the case, then I'm clearly wrong and making a fuss about nothing. My apologies.

    [​IMG]
     
  16. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Then it's more correct to say that I hate it already thanks to the assholes that go buddy buddy on people and prioritise their friends over the competent people.

    Then again, it's a person problem, not a game problem :rolleyes:
     
  17. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    lets not italicize random words for comedic effect everyone. its a path that only leads to darkness

    suggestion: so from what i understand, the person in the cv can steal the research and building placement functionality from the commander without having him subject to a vote? its not like it matters that he can kick the guy in the cv if hes already canceled research or unlocked the vf when the com wants it unlocked
    i dont think this really fixes the problems of commanding
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
  18. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I'll say I like the idea of being able to manage squads from out of comm view, that's kinda handy.

    I don't understand some people though, most of the time people don't want comm. So why are you getting mad at the person who actually volunteers? Admittedly, with this the commander isn't actually forced in the seat, but they will still do it anyway. If it is someone who just grabs the votes then runs away from the cv they won't be winning any votes again. Fsspace is still functional.

    I suppose the thing destroyer is talking about is in infantry maps. Which still seems kinda whatever. If it's a squad that's actually competent they can lock squad which prevents the comm from messing with it. Generally anyone who actually locks squad knows how to lead the squad too, so I doubt anything bad would happen. On the very off chance a new person or someone who is a bit of an ass gets in the squad first then locks, well anyone else is free to leave and start a new squad.

    Complete probably brings up the only good point, it takes only a couple of seconds for someone to hop in and cancel research or drop radars everywhere, not enough time to kick. The comm can lock the cv though, so people can't just hop in. Which does help a lot on that front. The only other idea I got is a simple temp lock of like 10-15 secs after whoever left the cv, which is most likely the comm anyway, where the only thing someone else can do is drive around in case it needs emergency saving, just about the only time you want someone else in the cv.

    In short is the suggest perfect? No, but I don't think perfection is really possible beyond making the cv no longer possible to move around. I say that because then the commander really has no reason to leave the seat. But then it wouldn't be empires. At least this suggestion adds options to help with the problems which is a good thing.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2015
  19. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    You can fix all of that as well, but it takes quite a bit more dev effort.

    Ideally, the commander (not necessarily the guy in the CV) would be able to lock individual CV capabilities. This is like down-the-road pie-in-the-sky shit.

    I'm talking about perhaps independently locking & unlocking the abilities to

    • move the CV
    • start research
    • stop research
    • lock the VF
    • drop buildings
    • recycle buildings
    • control squads
    • etc

    The core idea is that one player has to basically be able to moderate that team's behavior.
     
  20. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    "sitting in the cv is the most boring thing to do, so let me have a puppet i can boss around while having fun"
    no, no, no, no ...
    ... either make commanding from within the cv attractive or decoupe the whole job from the boomtank.

    but i agree, commanding is the most boring tedious thing there is in empires.
    ... which is kinda sad, the blend between RTS and FPS is the games major selling point (aside of that it is free AND has vehicles)
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2015

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