Sinking feeling (map idea)

Discussion in 'Mapping' started by SwampRat, Oct 28, 2006.

  1. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    I love this map (it's getting seen a lot more now that KM put it in rotation--the sinking version, of course). It's very fun to play something different from the usual Empires maps. I do have to say, though, that there seem to be lots of people who don't love it... I've seen people suicide the CV to avoid playing on it, after asking everyone if it's alright (I asked that they didn't, but they didn't listen to me.) Partially I suspect they just hate new things (when I asked what they disliked about it, the most common response was "THE WATER RISES!" Go figure.) A lot of people seem to dislike how it tends to turn into standoffs and stalemates, too, though I sort of like that.

    In terms of issues... one thing about the map that bothers me is the way the capturable res points work. They can be unintuitive for new players to the map, and it's hard to tell who controls them at the moment. Would it be possible to give them flags on the minimap that change based on who controls them? That would make it obvious to all players that there is a capturable point there. Yes, yes, the capturable res points on the infantry maps work the same way... but they're generally not as important, since you can only spam light vehicles on those maps anyway. Having someone sneak in and capture a res point on this map with nobody noticing is annoying.

    I had a glitch where I sank into that curved path near the evil half-opening door. I think I'd just gotten out of an APC on it? Anyway, it was strange.

    I've seen a lot of people complaining about the fact that they can't arty into the area at the center of the map (dunno if that's because they're bad at it or because the walls are really too high.) That's one of the traditional ways to break standoffs, so it might be worth considering in any case.
     
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2008
  2. LordDz

    LordDz Capitan Rainbow Flowers

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    I really like the idéa of the map, that you should not stay for one place too long, and so researching lvl 3s and camping one spot won't help you here! (Or will they? Can turret shoot under water?)

    But one thing is that when the enemy has the middle, they often wins, and it's a hell to move a tank up that slope, just to get killed by a little sticky. But it helps infantry :) . And I've had the greatest CV defense on it! A guy left the cv in a hole and I had to take it, first time I've seen APCs fall from the sky ^^
     
  3. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    That's another nice thing about it... even with lots of tanks, there are enough small 'infantry paths' to make infantry useful. I wish more maps would do things like that.

    Hrm. The main issue is how hard it is to dislodge people from the middle... but that's also kinda the point of the map. I do think that if someone manages to grab the middle and hold it until the water rises high enough, they should win (although more frequently, they'll win sooner than that because the need to attack full-force will make the enemy reckless.) The key, of course, is to make it less easy to hold and more interesting to contest without disrupting that basic point.

    Making it easier to attack into the center with arty would certainly help; perhaps making more infantry routes into the center would, too, or removing / reducing the value of the center res node. Perhaps add some constructable bridges / ramps / ladders that make it easier for the attackers when they have them up (so the defenders have to keep them down)...

    Oh! One simple idea: It often seems as if the defenders build a billion layers of walls at a few key locations. Perhaps, instead, those areas (the main chokepoint entrances to the center) should be given a single buildable brush as a wall (like the wooden walls from escort), but made otherwise non-buildable. That way, the defenders could have a barricade, but not an invincible million-layer-thick defense.
     
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2008
  4. thaile

    thaile Member

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    The thing about this is most people tend to rush middle, bunker down and don't reinforce anywhere else. Making it easy for the other team to go around and capture everything else then overwhelm the middle.
     
  5. SwampRat

    SwampRat Member

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    My main intention with it was to have it fairly easy to defend the middle - but also easy to defend against the middle - so that if a team takes it too early then they can get stuck.

    There are a number of improvements I made to the non-sinking version that I haven't copied across, if there are actually servers prepared to put the map on I'd be happy to update the map a bit.

    Would it sound fairer to take out the ref point entirely from the centre so that its harder to hold it? (its only on "1" res at the moment so can't be reduced) Is the amount of res on the rest of the map too high? I've not actually managed to be on a server with the map being played properly yet...

    I'll look into the non-buildable walls - and if anyone knows where to find nice prefabs like the wooden bits on duststorm (sure I've seen them elsewhere too) then I'd appreciate that.

    There was always a plan for an underground base, which would have satisfied the infantry path idea - but since it was my first map with displacements I made it in such a way that its a pain to make holes to have tunnels. If anyone could suggest locations for infantry routes that don't use tunnels then I'd be grateful (esp. with picture support) or if someone is good enough at working with dodgy displacements to put tunnels in then I could prepare the underground bits and pass it to them to make holes that work (I don;t believe it can be done though)

    I think theres only one flag that gives res - unless I screwed up - which should be the factory/refinery thing. I'll put a flag on the minimap for that one if it'll help.
     
  6. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    The KM clan server is running Sinking (the water-rising version) in its rotation. Or at least, it was last time I played there, and I assume it still is. And there are generally enough people there that it's getting some real games, although as I said some people are complaining about it. (They usually do complain about new maps, though.)

    Taking the center res node out might help. Although generally, the defenders don't use very many tanks anyway... maybe you should try and play on it a few times and see what you think.

    One major issue (and I'm not sure if this is intentional or not) is that there don't seem to be very many places to build... comms new to the map often have trouble placing things as a result, and it takes some experience to know where you have to rush in order to put important forward barracks.

    What do the other capture points do, out of curiousity?
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2008
  7. SwampRat

    SwampRat Member

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    the flags are mainly just places to have your team's flags hanging about for pride, atmosphere and free points - there are generally health and/or ammo crates that pop up, it was more to have something to do when you're around the houses.

    Regarding having places to build - I'd have liked more but i found the space rather constrained with fitting everything I wanted in, hence some of the rather steep slopes. Ideally the park and other area would have been a touch bigger and there could have been a few extra small bits where a few buildings could be placed.

    Oh and the other codge-up I made was having far to many starting turrents, I meant to take some out but forgot...
     
  8. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

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    I think the version which sinks and which is currently out has good res flow because I was in a match where BE had all kinds of things researched such as level 3 turrets, arties, meds and so on.

    We were on top of the hill and got resource through the only ref on the top and the captured refinery at the south.

    We were quite badly broke but we managed to hold them off with walls, fully upgraded RPGs and upgraded turrets which engineers placed and upgraded. They finally sank because of the water even they conquered the rest of the map. It was tight battle. So I think the res flow on the map is ok.
     
    Last edited: Mar 30, 2008
  9. De_Ghost

    De_Ghost Member

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    I HATE YOU, STOP ROCKET SNIPING ME FROM THE HILL,
    the other team is on the hill just dropping mortars!!!
    WTH
    make the wall steeper.... or put a magical unenterable box on the top..
    i mean from the middle they can mortar everything and my arty can't even hit em
     
  10. SwampRat

    SwampRat Member

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    There is a magic box in some places - but not all - if theres a particular problem area then I'd like to know please.

    While I'm thinking of changing this map - does anyone know the draw distance for models in Empires? I know its a less than the distance you can see in Cyclopedian (or whatever the name is) as people cut in and out, I'd like to change the fog so that you can't see land&detail further than you can see tanks and infantry...

    Current plan of things to change:
    -floating houses -> everything meeting the ground,
    -opening door thing,
    -bridge,
    -minimap flag for capturable ref
    -some tweeks to water movement that I've already put through (killing off underwater refs better)
    -adding smoke to ref points
    -removing/capping res on central ref spot
    -Another infantry path or two to centre if I can fit them in, maybe using buildables up the side of the hill (e.g. something from the graveyard and something from the park)
    -I'll look into build restrictions on the paths to the centre, not sure how far that route to go - but having lots of layers of wall could easily be a pain

    where abouts on the KM rotation is it, or is it votable only? I tend not to get hours to sit playing at the moment so jumping on to try and hit this map is tricky but I really do want to see it in action.

    Do easy to build & easy to kill buildables sound better than hard to build (long time so easier for defenders to set you back) but high health buildables?
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2008
  11. De_Ghost

    De_Ghost Member

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    acually imo under water ref is better, if u push the other guy in the middle, you'd need those ref to siege him out
    the problem i have with this map is you knw where that radar is on the moutain around the middle, yea that place and on that rim all around it, u'll always get grenadier sniping everything with mortar and rockets....
    make it a bit steeper so people can't climb up ?, i really have no complain except a bit more polish terrain
     
  12. SwampRat

    SwampRat Member

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    Ah - theres actually an intentional path up to the radar area, which may have been a bad plan I suppose. I could try adding a lip to the outside edge to make it multi-layered inside the crater but avoiding rocket sniping outside. That with a path up to that area from the other side may help. I wonder how long this big fat list of changes I'm queueing up will take me to get around to...

    Oh and the main reason I've made it an arse to use arty on the centre - if you could shoot arty in then they can shoot arty out much much better. I suppose that could be fair if there is restricted res in the middle so you have to be good to get an arty and even then you wont get many. not sure how I could change it without lots of lifts to get people high enough or taking chunks out of the wall (fairly easy to do, but still favours the high ground)
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2008
  13. SwampRat

    SwampRat Member

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    There has been popular demand that the map and all traces that it ever existed be destroyed - so I've changed it a bit. huzzah!

    [​IMG]
    Here is a piccy showing roughly where a couple of new infantry paths and ladders (should you fall off a cliff and live due to source's ineptitude) are.

    download (if you see any point in doing so) here:
    http://www.hlrse.net/empiresvhe/SwampRat/
    Thanks again Qwerty for the hosting whatsit
     
  14. Chahk

    Chahk Member

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    Wtf... It's my favorite non-official map. Sure it can use some balancing tweaks, but overall it was a great idea with an awesome implementation.
     
  15. J_4mes.

    J_4mes. Member

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    oh oh oh add a secret lever that when you pull it, 500 cars spawn crushing the players on the map...yeeeehhh!
     
  16. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    Empires just needs this gun.

    Anyway, I like the new version, although since I haven't had a chance to play it against actual other people I suppose the usefulness of my comments is limited (I can't say the exact effect that the barricade changes will have, say, although of course I think it'll be a big improvement.) I spent a while wandering around it, though, so I can comment at least a bit on some things:

    I certainly like the additions of railings to the 'highway' path and the clearer minimap (although I think both of those were added before this version, just not on the one I've played.)

    The church is lit by fires. Fires that continue to burn when they're underwater.

    One problem I can see is that many of the new infantry paths aren't on the map. This is an issue with a map that's going to be "new" to most people, because generally for an infantry path to be useful for attackers you'll need a bunch of people storming into it at once. So maybe they should be drawn on the map somehow... the fact that the map's rough mountain look sometimes makes it hard to find where paths are compounds this (although now that many of them have clear 'dirt tracks' tracing them, perhaps that will be less of an issue.)

    Even with smoke rising from them, it took me a moment to recognize some of the res nodes. It's just strange having rocks that big on them... most res nodes use the same small rocks, so people tend to expect that. Still, with smoke it probably isn't a big deal.

    I moved both CVs to the top so I could spend some time exploring, and was surprised to find that the water stops before it floods the center. Not that it really matters, since it's virtually unthinkable for it to ever reach that point in a real game...

    It would be interesting to see a map like this with multiple 'high ground' points, where you eventually have to build bridges to get between them as they turn into islands. But that's something completely different.

    I would imagine that most of those infantry paths would be pretty easy to hold with well-placed engie turrets and so on, overall. But it's really hard to tell without seeing it actually getting played... and, of course, forcing the defenders to spend time defending them makes it easier to rush in the main entrances.

    I'd expected the barricades to be one big barricade on each entrance that totally blocks it off and has to be destroyed by the attackers to get in, not several smaller ones that can be driven around. But several smaller ones might work, too... it'd be interesting to see it in action.
     
  17. SwampRat

    SwampRat Member

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    The problem I thought would happen with one large barricade is that unless theres a capturable point in the centre (always possible) then I couldn't see how to make it so that the other side could deconstruct barricades with the engineers tool, which was a little ott I thought.

    I thought that the prop I used was the standard 'res prop' thing, although I was also suprised by the size, they could go into the ground a bit more I suppose - the little nozzle to go on the floor may have been a better plan than rocks but I couldn't see which model that used. If anyone could let me know that (since I couldn't possibly look myself...) then I'll happily put different models in for another version.

    err, the church uses holy fire of something or other. Its a good point there.

    I think the water will on average stop before it floods the centre, but I can't remember quite where the average stopping point is. There's quite a lot of randomness in the water movement meaning that it could probably stop before flooding the second level, but thats rather unlikely.

    If I'd thought of a look for the map that didn't need such height changes, multiple high spots could have been interesting - If anyone wants to take the sinking idea and make it better / redo it then please do...

    I may add some dotted lines to the minimap and put it into the current package. That shouldn't cause "the map version is different" errors should it? I was musing earlier this morning about making the minimap into more of an ordinance survey type map rather than being a picture based one, not sure if that'd be in keeping though.

    Thanks for the feedback
     
  18. DrummerX

    DrummerX Empires Tyrant

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    no minimap in download
     
  19. SwampRat

    SwampRat Member

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    are you sure that the minimap isn't included rather than having an error? It's included in the zip file that I thought I'd uploaded, if theres an error of some sort or its not included then I'll re-upload it - I'd be surprised if its the latter as it means I must have made two zips...
     
  20. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Suggestion:

    Whats about some, two or three, "escort-like" tunnelsystems to the middle.
    So the faction that takes middle has more to do til arty arrives :D
     

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