Server State Commentary

Discussion in 'General' started by ImSpartacus, Oct 8, 2016.

  1. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    @ImSpartacus I feel that you are trying to explain a larger problem with multiplayer games (not just empires). The thread title is somewhat misleading... And I acknowledge that you are not disputing your actions.

    If I may explain what I believe you to be saying...

    The issue Spartacus is trying to raise... Is the issue of ending a game when a clear winner emerges. I can make a whole thread about this issue if necessary, explaining the whole problem...

    The question being debated should be "How can we prevent one team from delaying their clear victory?"
     
  2. Paradox

    Paradox I am a gigantic asshole who loses people's hard wo

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    Its a bit more like how can we prevent on team from delaying their clear victory if your team consists of noobs who dont know what coordination, communication or teamwork is.
     
  3. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Losing is not the problem. I've lost a lot, especially on low pop matches.

    When you're artificially never allowed to progress, you end up missing out on huge chunks of what makes Empires into Empires.

    If you never get a VF on a com map, that really sucks. Not only are you not experiencing the core "thing" of Empires, you have to walk hefty distances on a com-sized map.

    If you never get a radar on a com map, that sucks too. You're pushing vanilla vehicles indefinitely. Noobs are already at risk of literally never using anything but vanilla vehicles. When noobs have a VF but no research, they are much more likely to never understand that vehicle can be upgraded. With the way stock armor works in Empires, that is bound to leave a bad taste in player's mouths.

    If you never get refs, then you're sitting in your VF waiting for the cash to buy your tank. That is simply not fun.

    Not all of those things happened in the match that inspired my post, but the overall point is that the "Empires" experience can get strangled when a team is being fucked with.

    It sounds like the match drug on for quite a bit longer as NF was slowly crushed by a team with a clear advantage until it was brain-dead obvious that a loss would not happen soon enough and a surrender was necessary. That's literally the kind of thing that I think should be prevented.

    Also, the team that voted for that surrender was definitely not the team that I (tried to) lead.
    1. You joined it. On small pop matches, one single cognizant player is absolutely huge. It's massively easier to pass a vote at that point.
    2. The population was sufficiently changed from when the match started. We started with barely a 4v4. It was at least 6v6 when I left (potentially more). It certainly could've grown after I left.
    Though ultimately, I really don't want to get hung up on this one specific match because that's not the point of this thread. I think it's crucial to recognize that in almost all low-pop scenarios, it is next to impossible to get a vote passed. It simply isn't effective and therefore can't be relied on in the situations where it's most needed.

    Maybe I'm weird, but switching teams is a massive downer and really takes the wind out of your sails.

    I think it's true if an "experienced" player is trying to help a losing team. That specific player has to be a really good guy to do that - I don't think there are enough players to consistently rely on that. Also, that player is now leaving his team - maybe some teammates that really looked forward to playing with him (i.e. it affects A LOT of players, not just those switching).

    I think it's also true if an "inexperienced" player is switched to the winning team. Firstly, he might not even know what's going on and doesn't recognize if he's winning or losing or whatever. Secondly, he just effectively got killed. That kinda sucks. Maybe he was a scout that had been crawling on his belly for the past five minutes. I'm not encouraging that behavior, but maybe it caused some "fun" for that particular player and not he just lost it.

    Overall, switching players in the middle of a game just seems like a really bad idea and not something that's sustainable.

    If that's how we define griefing, then that's fine.

    Can we have something else that covers situations where:
    • A com gets voted in an then leaves? In my mind, that's a total dick move and a team without a com is dead in the water.
    • A team isn't "trying hard enough"? If you are turtling when you don't have to or delaying research or just screwing around when you definitely don't have to, then that can seriously damage a match for all involved.
    I would personally call those "griefing" in the sense that they have a very high probability of ruining a large portion of the playerbase's fun, but the naming isn't important.

    These are definitely hard to enforce, but I'd argue that they are just as important as the definition of griefing that you described.

    I think you've worded it far better than I did.
     
  4. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    @ImSpartacus A new thread then? To debate the actual issue here? (And get solutions!)

    Although, this whole issue is worthy of a game design blog post... (Hmm, we don't have a dev blog yet :D)
     
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  5. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Well, I have said many times that this game should take example on the RTS competitive scene when it comes to ending matches.
    When you're playing a RTS at a high enough level and you know you've lost, you end the game. It is very frowned upon to keep the game going just for the hell of it.
    What I'm trying to say, is that it is okay to end the round early in order to move on to a potentially better one. You wouldn't believe the amount of time wasted by that stupid "never surrender" ideology.

    I know some of you don't believe it possible for people to know when they've lost, when you can't come back. But if the variables (players) stay the same (no one joins), it is entirely possible.

    Call me a Commander supremacist, but I believe that should be the commander's decision either or not to continue the game.

    All that being said, like I explained to LT, having to end games early is just another symptom of the abyssal drop of the player's skill level and mentality of the average player. And you don't cure something by treating the symptoms, you have to fix the cause.
     
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  6. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    You or someone else can make it. I don't know if I have the personal motivation to meaningfully contribute to this community anymore - it's a lot of work.

    All I know is that I feel far too fondly about this community to passively see its servers deteriorate because one hyper-specific issue is strictly enforced while a much broader and insidious issue is neglected.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2016
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  7. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I still think the reason we have so much that turtle business and last stands that last for ever is because we really only have 2 win conditions, kill all spawns and players(I've seen this happen like once legitimately) and kill the cv. Have a bunch of long posts over here https://forums.empiresmod.com/index.php?threads/changing-the-win-condition.19224/

    To me giving a few other win conditions would seriously help things lasting forever because 80% of the time there's no comeback from certain things, the main one getting pushed back into your base. Sure it can feel all nice and stuff when you can break out of that, but most of the time that's solely cause random (good)vet joined team to turn things around or research(usually heavies) is finished and suddenly heavy push out of no wheres. People like that notion of never give up, but there will always be something off to me if you were losing the entire time and suddenly you come back from the dead, I mean retaking the map not ninjas.

    Quite honestly empires is at its peak when frontlines and battles shift rapidly, where base swaps are a common occurrence, like this one game of duststorm I had and changed sides with be 3 times, great stuff. Stalemates aren't so fun and that's what that last stand really is, one side can't make that final push and the other has no real good way of getting out of base(this is map dependent but usually true). So moving out of long ass last stands in to round where peak empires, the best empires, can be had should be done.
     
  8. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    I'm not disputing it's unlikely to work, but sometimes the best idea is to just force it. Recycle your rax, get 1 single other competent player on your team to buy an APC and drive it for you, just give the rest of your team no choice but to spawn in it. Like I said, 95% chance you lose but it's still better than just ditching the CV.
     
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  9. Acolyte

    Acolyte Member

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    Hey, so you know the only reason i "grief" is because i assume from the start that my team is incompetent and do everything i need to get done myself (especially when i have a vf and can go save the comm myself)

    Anyway, i can completely sympathize with security here. The first 3 minutes of the game are probably the most important in terms of map control. If your team is incompetent and there are good players in spec just waiting, it can really piss me off (thanks to those who join the nub team though) i think this could be fixed if we just forced auto assign.... the teams won't be balanced all the time, but at least there wouldn't be intentional stacking.
     

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