Script changes for next patch.

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Sgt.Security, Jun 6, 2016.

  1. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    The changes are not done and are not final, they are just the changes I submitted. Feel free to comment and/or let me know if I missed anything.

    Really, conc grenade was removed for virtually no reason.

    For reference, BE Heavy Tank has a base cost of 800.
    I have a feeling that this cost difference actually affected something.
    Especially now both tanks are not-so-imbalanced.

    I swear to cake, 0.3 0.2 0.2 max spread is...ridiculous.
    For referenece, SMG2 has 0.05 0.04 0.04.

    I am not done with SMG3, this is just rework_part1.
    Sticky grenade requires fuck ton of skills to use correctly, yet it's not very rewarding.
    To compensate sticky buff.
    Reason same as last patch, our little advanced coolant really isn't that advanced.
    It's the slowest engine, it has to be really good at cooling.
    First, they both have ridiculously long reload time, it's not like GLs blow up your base instantly or something.
    GL also has an unnecessarily long cycle time.
    GL's range feels like an old man pissing.
    Apparently, I didn't help bio MG enough.
    Reason same as bio MG, to make the weapon more useful.
    DUMG's DPS is still quite lower than HEMG, I feel it's reasonable to make DUMG more accurate than HEMG.
    Longer cycle time will give people more time to react.
    Shorter reload time to compensate.
    Longer guide range so it doesn't look fucked up.
    50 = standard cannon weight.
    No other 2-slot cannon/missile weighs 50, this shouldn't be an exception.
    Less heat for obvious reasons, also less heat to target so it won't be OP.
    Slightly smaller explosion radius, so it rekts infantry less.
    I actually forgot to decrease the chassis cost for arty tank when I increased the cost of Compo/Deflective.
    I know this is a little more then compensation, but I also made artillery tanks more fragile in 2.8.0, so it might not be a bad thing to make arty tanks cheaper.

    Also a little more depression, so arty tanks will have a "wider" range.
    I already buffed their range significantly in 2.8.0. But apparently, these "short-range arty cannons" still need a little more range.

    180mm arty will have a slightly longer range than 203mm.

    I know I've been doing everything to make "tactical arty" a thing, but I don't want arty tanks to just toss infantry, especially grenadier around like dolls.
    I want the tactical arty tanks to simply rekt building/vehicles.
    0.06 might just be a little bit too much.
    After this, coolant engine + engi coolant + capacitive should be more viable.
    I think we are almost(if not already) there for Regen.
    Like the 10% damage reduction I added, all about making Deflective easier to use.
    But don't worry, I will not go beyond this, I know Deflective won't be Deflective if I keep dropping angle modifier.
    I should give Absorbant even higher bio modifier(definitely not 1, but higher than 0.45), but I don't want to kick Absorbant in the ass, we are doing this step by step.
    Less sustainability, just like BEAR.
    It has always been retardedly easy for vehicles to outrun turret missiles.

    10% buff so med/heavy tanks won't outrun turret missiles, AFV/LT should still be able to outrun.
     
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2016
  2. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Salvo being lighter then uml was a good reason to take it over uml. Solid damage boost that was rather situational and can be paired up with anything. 10 isn't that much more though for a weapon that's generally better in more situations.

    I'm not feeling that change to abs which feels like an extra, what, 2-3 hp a plate between the +1 hp and tiny tiny bit more speed to damage? Extra bio damage makes sense though, it never made sense to have that much resist. Does that modifier go that low though? I remember when testing before that some of the stats for things didn't go lower then .00 or .0000.

    My plasma cannon still best cannon. Or maybe you should make it new bio cannon? But yeah that heat change is enough to make me research it.

    I'm pretty much indifferent to everything else.
     
  3. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    These changes seem good. It would be nice not to have heat on target reduced for plasma CN, but the splash reduction is a fine tradeoff. It's the removal of heat on impact that has fucked plasma, one plasma and one normal tank can no longer team up to immobilize someone and I think this needs heavy compensation. Even a massive damage reduction and massive heat application buff, but it's your call.

    Currently feels like there's too much res in the game. Likely because of recycling and an increased player count, which lets be honest, isn't really what the red is balanced towards simply because 60 player servers are a recent novelty. I wouldn't mind seeing vehicles a little more expensive in general and maybe even making raxes 250.

    Also make research cost money again.
     
  4. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    There are reasons for you to take UML, there are another bunch of reasons for you to take Salvo.
    I just don't think 50 weight is proper for a decent tier 2 weapon.
    It's not just 10 weight though, if you get two, that's 20 weight.

    Absorbant already kinda works.
    2% change isn't minor, considering this is no longer that "one-single OP & high C/P value armor" game.
    It's also a different form of compensation for that bio modifier change.

    If you get dual Plasma CN, that's 14 "plain" heat for your enemy per 2 secs.
    Considering the fact that your enemy fires too, 14 heat is a lot.

    Also this isn't Plasma MG, Plasma CN actually deals a fuck ton of damage.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2016
  5. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    You're talking about one situation though - BE heavies.

    Plasma will be useless for NF, unless you're going to focus on balancing Medium tanks. I guess this is more a problem with the fact Plasma has no ML than anything else, just like Electrical is currently far, far, far better for NF than it is for BE.

    Anyway, how about a compromise to 8 or 8.5 to actually make it decent for anything other than a BE late game weapon which is still outclassed by other weapons.
     
  6. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Plasma does the same damage as ranged cannon. 80 damage 2 second cycle time. With actual splash though you can use just plasma on a tank, unlike rails or ranged cannon. So sure it has nearly twice the heat of ranged, but it also pretty much prevents a shot of something from the enemy.

    The only thing that plasma isn't so good with is sieging a base, and that's totally fine. It's probably a tad better then he cannon at it, but it's also 20 weight heavier.

    In regards to dual salvo tanks, they suck. Dual uml is just better, because for salvo to do well you have to be right next the enemy and that's usually a bad place to be in for nf heavy. Dual uml can be used at any range. Does salvo output more damage? Yeah, but that's only if all missiles hit and 1 usually flys away from the target.
     
  7. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    I don't think anyone is saying shotgun tanks are OP, I am talking about dual salvo homing ML, which is fast to research, very good, but even worse it's comparatively very cheap.

    Edit: my mistake Lazy was actually talking about something else
     
  8. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    Can we get some armour changes?

    I've noticed that there isn't a lot of variation in the armour weightings.

    iirc
    2 are at 18pp (per plate) [both in electrical engineering]
    3 are at 15pp
    1 is at 12pp

    But capacitative and regen seem weaker (to me at least) than the others.

    Regen seems to be stripped down 2 plates per grenadier shot and just makes the tank feel brittle, 1 hard hit (shotgun heavy?) and it basically dies.
    The regeneration isn't enough to counteract this currently.

    And the overheating on capacitative feels like a major downside, no one ever uses it. As for the same weight why not reactive? It serves the same purpose...

    So I propose that these armours have a weight change to give more incentive to use them, and to spice up the current loadout options

    Regen: 15 -> 14/13 weight per plate
    Capacitative: 18-> 16 weight per plate

    Just my views... Thoughts?
     
  9. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Regen isn't for taking a beating, it's for hit and run and super mobile maps like dust where it's all about dodging shots instead of taking it face on like on slaughtered. I think it's fine, it's just a case people need to research the right thing for the right situation, instead of being one armor for every situation(which is still a thing). Though it is sad regen isn't right next to a fast engine, it kinda needs it to truly shine.

    Capactive is hard to judge because it's some what surprisingly a hard armor to use. Maybe that heat change is enough to save it, but I'm not so sure. It does have a bit of a purpose though, capactive does the best against mines and vehicle mgs like hemg, and it's slightly better against bio then reactive(very slight). It's just slightly more expensive and has that annoying heat problem that reactive doesn't have, so it's very hard to get over reactive. Maybe it should weigh a little less?

    I kinda prefer old capactive that degenerated, but it shouldn't have been it's own research. It should have been gotten at the same time as reactive.
     
  10. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    • bio mg felt strong when i was using it in this version
    • hemg needs a nerf. dont know how much projectile spread will affect it but i'll still never research dumg unless its massively op because hemg kills buildings, is easy to use, and is quick to get.
    • salvo change is good
    • you saw how good arty is on homeland. there is no need to buff it even more. this is ridiculous
    • none of these armor changes will make me want to get them over reactive.
    • nf heavy rifle feels super strong, and others agree. dont know if less ammo will negate that.
     
  11. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I think it needs just a lil more damage. Still feels not powerful at this point.
    I will probably nerf HEMG by another 5%, my original plan was a 10% nerf anyway.
    Now, HEMG is much more accurate than DUMG, that's kinda why HEMG is easy to use.
    That's one game and NF was already winning like crazy.
    I've seen a lot more games where the arty tanks failed because the tanks had to(because of the range) approach the enemy and boom, died instantly.
    The ideal range for me is something like A3 hill to NF main on Cyclopean.
    Every single armor works at this point.
    I've seen Absorbant being used in a lot of games, it was researched to save resources in the early game, they switched to a strong/expensive armor in the late game.
    Regen/compo would be great for some lengthy skirmishes.

    If you choose to stick with one armor and simply refuse to research any other armor no matter what, you'll probably lose some games without you knowing.
    I am dropping its sustainability, sustainability is quite important.
    For example, if I buff BEAR's capacity from 20 to 30, it will actually be OP.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  12. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I actually can't think of any situations where reactive is a bad choice. It wasn't like it was even bad before, but some things just did better then it for various reasons.
     
  13. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I am not saying Reactive is bad.
    Like I said, there is no bad choice now, there's only a better choice for the current situation.

    For example, compo/regen are better during some lengthy skirmishes, reactive is still pretty strong but compo/regen would outperform reactive in the end.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  14. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Yeah, I'm not disagreeing there.

    Also you think you can turn smg3 into pistol 1 but with a bigger mag and better falloff? Would be nice, like a nice middle ground between smg1 and 2. It's not like anyone seriously tries to use it now because of the terrible accuracy, so I'm sure people wouldn't mind any change to it.
     
  15. Donald Trump

    Donald Trump Member

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    Alright here is my input, HEMG is still OP in this patch at long ranges, however at close ranges DUMG is FAR FAR FAR superior to HEMG. These current changes are only going to make DUMG THAT MUCH MORE OP and make the standard research path now include only DU and nothing else. With less spread (Especially less than HEMG) I feel like this is going to make it absolutely devastating at long ranges, similar to HEMG currently.

    Also, I thought the whole point of Plasma was to overheat your opponent while not overheating yourself. Why would I EVER consider researching Plasma Cannon when I cant overheat my enemy and it does shit for damage?
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  16. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    DUMG has lower DPS and it has falloff.
    I am not sure what makes you think that DUMG is "far superior" than HEMG, even at close range.
    If anything it's the other way around, especially at long range.

    Fun fact : plasma cannon DPS = ranged cannon DPS.
    So if you think plasma cannon deals shitty damage, you think ranged cannon deals shitty damage. :|

    We already had a lot of armor changes and I believe most players would agree that we are "almost there", we don't have to wreck the things up with a lot of changes.

    One of the problems with having 15 16 17 armor weight(aka values that are really close to each other) is that you can load one more plate on a specific side with A armor but you can't load this extra plate with B armor, the difference is just one plate, you can't really make A armor even slightly inferior just for this.

    If we actually make A armor slightly inferior just for that, people will just pick B armor all the time.
    In short, there's no point at all.

    Armors already have quite a few variations.
    I am not going to add weight variation just for the sake of adding weight variation.
    If Capa generates too much heat, I'll drop the heat generation.
    If Regen is too weak(keep in mind it originally had 60 hp), I'll just buff it.

    You got free time for the arty model? I would be really appreciated if you can help me with that.
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  17. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Even though plasma has the same dps as ranged it also has nearly twice the heat output of it. I think at 15 that's fine though, if you land most of your shots you should be able to kill a tank before you max out on heat.
     
  18. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    I think it should be decided exactly how much effective heat should be in tank to tank combat. Perhaps everyone on this line of conversation has different ideas about how often a tank with plasma should overheat another tank.

    In my mind, I always thought that a single plasma loaded tank/apc should, after around 20 seconds of surviving tank combat, should be able to keep an enemy at 90% heat, ensuring that while they don't overheat, they certainly can't fire their weapon without being immobilized. Two tanks should be able to lock a single enemy tank down to almost constant overheating, which is fine because one tank will very rarely beat two tanks of the same type anyway.

    What is everyone else's idea of the perfect plasma outcome? Especially securities, as I kept trying to bait you into giving a design direction ;)
     
  19. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    Regen is not suitable for heavies though. The tanks can't go fast enough for hit and run, mediums are borderline. Really it's LTs and AFVs that have the required agility.

    Also with the weight that it is currently, you can't equip enough weapons on mediums to deal significant damage in a hit and run. BioML + HEMG only go so far....

    I'm thinking BE meds here as an example, 4 plates of regen are just not enough when an NF tank is keeping up with you and giving the same dmg output, but can take more hits on 4 plates of compo

    EDIT: as for the arty, I'm trying to get my hands on the source model file currently
     
    Last edited: Jun 7, 2016
  20. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    thats like half the entire hammer map. thats insane for a medium arty that is researched with the chassis. most maps dont use the full hammer map. nobody is going to get extended range if they can arty snipe from the start and also kill things in 4 shots
     

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