Remove Repair Upgrade, Rehaul Build

The main gist of this post is to remove the repair upgrade skill for engineers and buff e-build for everyone else.

So the idea is to:

1. Buff Engineer build to 1.5x it's vanilla (un-skill-buffed) value.
2. Buff E-Build to 0.7x of current Engineer build.*
3. Remove Repair Upgrade skill.

*I don't know what the current "e-build to engineer build" ratio is.

The idea is to distribute build across most classes, so everyone can help with building.

Most of the time I find people not building things because they're not engies, this has happened over most versions, but is more apparent in 2.24 because everyone gets owned by riflemen. So naturally more riflemen were apparent and less engies (happened to grens too), leading to whole teams losing simply through not building placed buildings.

The other part of the idea is to make Engineers less of a build-whore class while still retaining that as their main function. I say this not because I don't like building things, but because the burden of the team seems to be falling more and more on the diminishing engineer 'sector'. I also think this is a good way to free up engineers to focus as revivers and get into the action more, helping them being a more integral part of the team.

I'm open to other suggestions. I just think spreading the build load is the way to go.

 

wouldn't 0.7 x current nerf it?

or did you mean 0.7 increase to current.

 

0.7x engineers build for E-build. E-build I believe is quite low, like 0.5x or less of engineer build.

Edit: E.g. So if we say Engineer build by default is 500 units, E-build would currently be like...250 or less. If we bump that to 350, and bump Engineer default build to 750 and remove repair upgrade (no more 1000 unit build). That's what i'm suggesting anyway.

 

I tested it, it probrally around 0.25

 

Yeah it's really slow, meaning no one really builds something as another class unless they care and absolutely have to.

 

well, what about scouts sneaking behind enemy lines and building a rax?

then again i believe if that happens they earned dit

 

Scouts building...surely that's win my friend

 

e-build is 0.33 ratio.

 

Feels more like 0.1, but I digress.

/signed

 

im always building a scout barax behind enemy lines. This will just make my job a ton easier.

 

Do not want.
Repair upgrade is all that stands in the way of level 3s all the time at round start.

 

Bump

That's your only reason for saying no? So you need a workaround that still lets people get level 3's at the start of a round but not build them easily, and make other people have to help them, right?

I would say more people would get revive actually, but you have a point. I still very much want this in though.

Off the top of my head, I would say you could make engineer level 2's and level 3's (not level 1's) build at current 1x engineer build speed (no repair upgrade), and have e-build slowed to 0.5x current engineer speed. This would be an exception though.

 

I think the intent of this idea is good, but there is just no feasible way to implement this in a way that will be of a net benefit. Sure more people can help build, but this is not always a good idea.

Example for why this is a bad idea.
Get a 2 engineer /3 riflemen ratio and charge in with 2 squads. Its not going to matter that nothing gets built, you have have to kill 4 revive engineers while not dieing to 6 roflemen. As soon as all the bad guys are down, everyone builds the new barracks. Revive is the new "must take" skill

But how many people are going to do this?
Consider this: With the current system, 1 engineer can build a barracks with repair upgrade in 1 charge as long as it takes no damage.
-So you get 2 engineers?
Trying to get more people to "help" get a building up?
-As an engineer, I would rather have the 2 riflemen covering me than trying to help e-build. Now its going to take longer to get buildings up and thus make the start of the round a lot risker, especaley with 400 res rax and the current build time.
"But I want to 'help'"- rifleman
-How many times are you healing a rifleman in a combat area and they are looking at you like they are expecting you to stab them in the back?

qft

tl/dr: non engineers are still not going to e-build and is going to increase the risk of failing due to a lack of teamwork (sufficient engineers) at the start of a round.

 

10 people killing something? Are you serious? Revive is a "must take" skill, it's only because people rely so heavily on a small set of dedicated builders that we need repair upgrade as it is. I should say why aren't the defending team doing this too? And with 4 engineers they could build anything in 1 charge currently with revive upgrade. This scenario can already be done, wow...so...I wonder why we don't get 10 people working together like this all the time, eh?

*sigh* How many people do you see, who are not vets, actually bothering to e-build anything? How many of those are total newbies that don't know what they are doing really?

"In one charge" means the engineer needs to wait for 1/2 of his ammo to refil before he can finish building, with this change. As an engineer, you actually have 2 riflemen covering you? It's not often that happens for me, I must say, and actually because of the way e-build is, I can often build and cover in one direction as a roffleman.

400 res rax is out. Completely. And the "but I want to help" is ridiculous. If you've seen a rifleman who wants to do anything other than gun down the other team then he's a newbie, or someone who's really fed up of getting his ass handed to him as another class.

I think your main point is...you don't want other classes to be building and helping with building while their function is elsewhere. That's a valid concern actually. My point is, I don't want to be one of only 3 engies on a team of 20 who are building for the entire team. Having e-build buffed means more people will actually start to use it.

I dunno really, but I can point at pretty much every vet in this game and ask them if they've ever been forced to go engy and build to save their team, or if they've just said "fuck it" and stayed as their class only to see the team lose for lack of building. The answer would be yes.

The game should not be lost for lack of people building things. It really shouldn't. Ideally, i'd like a straight buff to e-build - because 6 people equalling the work of one engy with repair is frankly ridiculous, but the offset people usually point out is with engineers and other classes both building at that speed, it would be 'kinda overpowered'. You're arguing the opposite of this lol.

 

...It's not a rifleman's job to be building something unless there is nothing else to be done/area to be secured. For example, one of the worst aspects of this game at the moment is people's insistance upon performing the 'least daunting' task. When trying to erect a rax that is being nade spammed, more often than not EVERYONE jumps on the rax to build it/e-build it instead of the non-engineers focussing on the infantry (forcing them to fight back and no longer spam grenades). This almost always ends in the rax being destroyed as nade spam damage can far exceed even repair upgrade engie build rates/ person over sustained periods of time.

- And no rifleman can "effectively build and cover in one direction" while being nade spammed by anyone with half a brain...because they'll either A. Have a turret up. or B. Have an elevation advantage or C. Have dropped a few walls to hide behind or D. All of the above for the non-noobies. Not to mention...lol to you trying to maintain an ebuild, take cover and effectively shoot at even infantry outside of cover...especially with model edges the way they are...you'll just shoot the edge of your rax most of the time.

There are other persistent problems as well such as increased rates of scout-ebuilds (which is not the purpose of the class). And provide diluted gameplay. Also it requires an engineer to be taken for a squad to be truelly effective. Now I'm not saying that engineers aren't currently overpowered, but I think that lays more heavily with their ability to revive/heal as well as drop amo. Both abilities I believe should be transfered to the rifleman class (most likely through a medic and supply upgrades respectively). That coupled with shifting mines as alluded to http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=11783&page=5 would allow for much better synching/balance between the classes. Engies would be intended to build/decon structures and are mediocre (as they are now) at anti-infantry and anti-tank. Riflemen would be the bread and butter of your battles, providing primary anti-infantry support along with healing/revive/mobile amo all through class upgrades. Grens would be taken to fend off vehicles or provide indirect fire support (anti-infantry) and good anti building damage. Scouts would be a minimalist option not intended to operate within the bounds of squadrons.

-Point in closing, engies are intended to build and for anyone who understands anything about the dynamics of the game, they're already very effective at other things. To make other classes better at building and engies worse just incites further imbalance between the classes and also makes the classes less individual/unique. I entirely with dumbing down engies ever so slightly. However, I highly recommend approaching this by moving their ability to heal/revive/drop amo to riflemen via class upgrades.

 

return e-build to engineer. engineer can build shit when he runs out of charge.

 

Mmm...actually, I find if I spawn wit' engy ammoz, build t3h rax then switch class it stays up more often, than if I spawn as rifle.

And you know what duuuude, it's not my job or the whole rest of the vets in the game to be a base be'atch for the rest of the team. You seen Zeke as a rifleman? Owns the other team and clocks up 60 points in hell knows how quick, know why? Because he's good and he doesn't care that things aren't getting built - his way of helping (yae and e-penising) is through ownage, and it works in his case. But that doesn't mean that other vets who actually want their team to win should be stuck in one class. Hey man, I don't even spawn vehicles anymore, because obviously those 150 noobs on the team know how to use the res better than me. In fact, why not just make me a walking engy tool, lol. Class=Tool!

I don't get to play as other classes, ya know? I started using the scout yesterday for the first time in years - classes I only get to play in testing because no one builds things or goes gren in public games. Sure they do sometimes, but it's that 1 outta 3 times that makes it jack awful.

Beg to differ old boy. It's not so often, but like the other day on canyon - NF rax placed, BE coming up, you prone on the step, hold e (it builds without you having to look specifically at the building, as long as you're partially seeing it) and laid down fire. First time in a while I was rifleman, gotta admit.

So what you want is the engineer to be an engineer as described in most other games, right? The problem is, explosives and base bitching and deconnin' is not so fun unless you got a weapon that is interestin' too. You mayaswell ask for the engy to get a shotgun, it's in every other game with an Engineer.

You know that the engineer was pimped out with all these things simply because of the reason i'm statin' here? - That no one builds things? All the things the engineer has are with him for the most part as incentive to play the class. He used to be an absolute god back when weapons were better, and it was fun until the rifleman became unstoppable. It wasn't that fun with crippled smg's though...really not at all.

The point I was supposed to be making with this, is that most of the team goes rifleman in the current version, then buggers off and fails like a bunch of 'tards. They always go another class unless the engineer is overpowered, and I don't particularly want that, so i'd rather the load get spread around so everyone can help.

I'm exaggerating for effect, it's not every map that you get no engies, it's more like 1 outta 3 or 4. But it's still quite a valid point. The part about me not getting to play other classes is true though, and before you say anything, yes, teams have failed when it has been ignored.

 

I think a huge issue is engineers hopping out and repairing tanks in the middle of a fight. I mean as a gren when you get a tank down to no armor and yellow hull on one side and he faces that side away from you and gets out then repairs it all the way up and drops more ammo all the while you only take out a couple layers of armor on the other side.