Remove Comm's ability to give targets

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by flounder, Jun 3, 2008.

  1. Arcadia

    Arcadia Member

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    There's only so many things for a Commander to do at the moment. Giving targets is a practice that makes a commander an greater asset to the team. Otherwise the only skill the commander can excel in is in placing buildings with skillful consideration, researching the correct paths, and communicating with the team. The idea of the commander giving certain units a tactical edge needs to be reinforced.
     
  2. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    Yeah but giving walllhack to the team isn't a real skill now is it? And why are you so narrow minded? If the commander would get to less to do, ADD MORE STUFF.

    Please guys, why so narrow minded all the time? Like all the suggestions that has been made on the forums the past month. I list them up for you.

    *Add more commands for commanders and squad leaders to issue squads people, example, mine, build stronghold, defend, ambush.
    *Add infantry research in a new separate infantry research.
    *Redo missiles and cannons so they make different damage on different targets, thus the commander need to think more.
    *Add doctrines!
    *Add more things to research, making research more divers.

    And also i command much, and i say that giving wallhack is boring and something that takes up my time. I could instead focus on what i should research, try to spot what the enemy team is researching, and doing more real command stuffs.
     
    Last edited: Jan 14, 2009
  3. Jephir

    Jephir ALL GLORY TO THE JEPHIR

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    There's no practice needed to give mass attack orders.
     
  4. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    yes just talk to your team, eventually they will listen ...

    ... tho this might be filed under "dreams that never come true" :D
     
  5. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    Fuck wallhack needs to be removed ASAP, just played as scout, figuring i use smoke grenades for tactical assaults, i was moving forwards, strafing, and from the smoke comes machine-gun fire that is accurately aiming in on me that is strafing, their is several smoke screens between us.

    This suxs.
     
  6. LifesLemons

    LifesLemons Member

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    If you stuck with your team,theres a strong chance of you getting a revive.

    Dont be a scout either.
     
  7. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    I think that's what Arcadia meant with the 'at the moment.' And 'as a practice' was meant as in the meaning of a "behavior" comms have, not something that requires practice.

    It's tricky and a bit touchy. I had a thread on the problems with comm not being fun and various 'comm powers' a while back. The problem is that while almost everyone would like to see it made a bit more fun and interesting to comm, few people actually want the gameplay effects of comm powers -- magically getting struck by comm lightning or having the guy you're fighting comm healed is not terribly fun.

    There's another game, very very similar to Empires, called Savage II (a fantasy RTS FPS RPG) that uses extensive commander powers -- you might look at it and see what you think of those, just for comparison. Most of their powers are fairly indirect, things like briefly raising or lowering defense of units in an area, gradual healing, slowing units down for a very brief time and so forth. I don't know that they'd fit in Empires, but it might at least be worth a look. Comming in it is, I think, rather harder than in Empires, though, since you have to manage all those comm powers in addition to buildings and orders. (Although in that game, at least, the engineer-types can build the equivalent of refs without requiring action from the comm.)

    Perhaps it would be interesting to have certain kinds of static defenses/offenses and structures that require direct comm control -- a fragile rocket-tower building (tall, so it can be hit from a distance easily) capable of hitting nearby areas with rockets on the comm's command, say. Or some kind of radio tower that can be used for a 'sensor sweep' ability to wallhack units (we have sensor equipment already; maybe this could be a power of that, expanding the area of an existing sensor briefly and making its diamonds hard red.) Basically, these tall narrow fragile towers as a 'focus' for comm powers would give the other team a way to fight back against the enemy comm's effects, by taking out the infrastructure necessary to provide them...

    I don't know, though.
     
  8. Jephir

    Jephir ALL GLORY TO THE JEPHIR

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    A commander already has enough things to do without attack order spam. It doesn't need to become more complicated than it already is.

    Commanding is much more than placing buildings and dragging boxes around enemies. Just look at all the epic comms' comming style, e.g. HSM, Cpatton
     
  9. Arcadia

    Arcadia Member

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    I said that the idea of the commander giving certain units a tactical edge needs to be reinforced. Not simply targeting in general.
     
  10. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    I stuck with my team! It was two forward barracks, with two forwards walls in-between them fighting the standard "Empires wall trench".

    And i picked scout for the smoke grenade, god knows why scout have it, so i threw a smoke grenade at their wall, blinding them, then i come forward against the smoke from an angle, and then from the smoke their comes machingun fire accurately following my strafing through the smoke and cuts me down.

    The Empires game mechanics effectively works against me when i try to use real tactics instead of just going to my wall and shoot at the red diamonds.

    I think that commanders have enough to do with out giving wallhack. Also if we add more research options the commander will get more to do, more to decide. Also add game mechanics that encourages listening to the commander.

    As for direct powers we could add like an artillery battery, an expensive "building" that would be destroyed or sabotaged, which can bombard once in a while inside of the closest radar range.

    Or give the existing radar a sensor sweep ability.

    Yeah and i gave good examples on how to accomplish that without wallhack.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  11. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    Hmm. On the other hand, if the comm had to find and click on the individual buildings (radar, artillery battery, etc) to use their powers, it'd be a huge bother, especially since you'd usually have to use them quickly and would be frantically searching for them to use them in time, then dashing back to where you want to aim them (for ones that are aimed). This wouldn't be so bad, except the comm interface isn't too good even for less time-critical things...

    Here's an idea. It sort of combines the Doctrines idea with comm powers.

    Give the comm a row of buttons or something that, when pushed, give the entire team (or all structures of a certain type, or whatever) some benefit/advantage for a short length of time. These powers would be fueled by some sort of regenerating 'comm meter', not by res (otherwise you put the comm in a situation where they have to choose between having fun themselves or letting their team have fun.) This meter would be set up so couldn't be used too often.

    Example abilities:

    Sensor Sweep would (for 30 seconds or so) widen the radius of all sensor equipment by a certain amount, make big radars grant diamonds the way smaller sensors do, and make all the diamonds 'solid' rather than flickering.

    Turret Overload would increase the damage and range of all your turrets for about ten seconds.

    Fortify would decrease all damage taken by your structures by a certain percentage for thirty seconds.

    ...one of the problems I have with doctrines is that they seem a little too abstract. They don't really encourage people to pay attention to the comm. Of course, these don't either... but they're still abstract enough that they can't really do anything on their own; they can just buy you a bit of time or a small advantage. Since they'd be linked to a limited comm meter, there would be strategy involved in using them; it wouldn't just be 'spam area-targets over and over'.

    But those would take away one of the big advantages of comm targets from a game mechanics standpoint -- they are one of the few ways a comm can really get players' attention (even if attack orders are sometimes ignored, players at least have an incentive to pay attention to them, because the comm is basically offering them an easier kill if they listen.)

    So alternatively, they could be targeted abilities selected from a little menu in the right; you just have to target them within the radius of one of the buildings that provides their power (so you can only use the Comm Arty power within a short radius around a Comm Arty tower -- your team still has to build and defend it for you, the enemy team can blow the tower up to prevent you from using it, etc.)

    This probably doesn't answer all the problems people have, but the general line of thought might be worth following... at least, comm targeting could be replaced by a limited 'sensor sweep' ability like that, an ability you use one click to target within range of a sensor to reveal + attack-order all enemies in the area, with a timeout that prevents you from just spamming it manually (so the comm has to think and plan and use it where it's most useful, rather than just frantically click-dragging every time there's a firefight.)

    This wouldn't replace more specific individual target attack orders, but those attack orders would be nerfed in one or more of the ways mentioned in this thread.
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  12. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    well yes removing the mass targets will remove much of the work a commander has to do now, and he will be even more a building/research slave as he is now.

    thats why i though about giving him the ability to more or less draw on the map (even if its only marked areas - everything else, a minimap you could actually paint different shapes and lines on would be UBERCOOL)
    i think it would be nice way to actually show people your attack plans, by enabling the comm to give targets that are not bound to units.

    i support the idea of giving the commander unique abilities. targeted and untargeted ones. even a sensor sweep would be nice, tho i think 30seconds will be a bit too long, i think it should be more like a frontline thing, that gives you an idea where where the enemies are, but dont give a long lasting advantage ...

    my ideas for that:

    sensor sweep
    duration: 5sec
    cooldown : 2min
    prerequisite: radar
    shows the position of all enemies (inf/buildings/tanks) in a certain range (about the size of cyclopean bases) on the minimap and 3D space - like camera target things ... has to be within few range of a unit.

    artillery barrage
    duration: 5sec
    cooldown: 2min
    prerequisite: artillery research
    fires 20? (4/sec) artillery shells randomly in a really large area (like the size of cyclopean bases) the shells itself should do not too much damage (ie not instakill soldiers with full health)
    direct view (ie soldier is close enough to see the area) is necessary (prevents arty sniping the enemy base)

    supply drops
    duration: - / last as long as ammocrates
    cooldown: 2min
    prerequisite: armory
    drops health and ammo crate at a position within viewing range of a certain unit.

    reinforcements/paradrop
    duration: 5-10sec
    cooldown: 2min
    prerequisite: advanced personal deployment
    creates a temporary spawnpoint withing viewing range of a unit, but not closer to enemy buildings than you can build a barracks.
    would be neat to implement parachutes just for that and have the units drop from really high above (like from right below the skybox)

    emergency power (bad name?)
    duration: 5sec
    cooldown: 2min
    prerequisite: -
    gives ONE building 80% damage reduction.
    needs a visible effect (glowing?)!!!

    overload
    duration: 5sec
    cooldown: 2min
    prerequisite: electrical engineering (any primary research/radar/i dont know)
    ups the damage of turrets in an area (both mg & ml) to 200%, but they take damage equal to 20% of their maximum health.
    again the area should be like cyclopean bases.
    needs a visible effect (glowing/sparks?)!!!


    besides their individual cooldown there should be a global cooldown of about 10-30seconds for using this abilities. im more for 30


    but well most of this has been suggested before and got shot down ... ;D
     
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2009
  13. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    Hmm, here's some thoughts...

    Make it so ammo drop can only be done within a certain radius of an armory (not too close, or it'd be useless; but you should need an armory in the general area.) This would encourage the comm to build armories in more places, since it would expand the area they can do a neat trick in. And this would avoid the situation where ammo drops make the existing ammo infrastructure obsolete.

    You mentioned glowing effects for several of these. How about not only that, but making a huge glowing beacon reaching up to the sky where your comm is using comm powers? I think this would be particularly valuable for emergency power -- so the comm wouldn't just make the building live a little longer, but could use it to delay the enemy for a few vital seconds while saying, at the same time, "DAMMIT GUYS GET OVER HERE NOW, THIS BUILDING IS IN TROUBLE!"

    Basically, big visible beacons would tend to attract your team to where you're using powers; teammates would be more likely to listen to the comm and go to these beacons when they know they'll be getting support there through comm powers. In particular, a big glowing beacon over supply drops could be nice -- the comm could basically use it to get players to go where they want, since people who need ammo will go to wherever the comm has dropped it.

    Along the same lines, how about giving the comm an 'Emergency Klaxon' button they can hit while driving the CV? This would cause a big loud siren to start playing continuously over all players, make their HUD lightly pulse red for a bit, and make a huge glowing beacon over your CV (visible only to your team). It'd also make your CV take a bit less damage and move a bit faster for a short length of time. Basically, a way to call people over when your CV is in trouble.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2009
  14. Sirex

    Sirex Member

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    I am bumbing this thread but mods i got a legitimate reason.

    On behalf of the community is ask you Developers what is the official statement on removing commanders mass attack/wallhack?

    I think we deserve to hear it.
     
  15. zenarion

    zenarion Member

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    Rebump.
    The wallhack thing sucks.
     
  16. Headshotmaster

    Headshotmaster Member

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    How about we leave it up to the commanders?

    Most of you are grunts, and are shit commanders.

    From my experience, you need target spam, because it allows you to relay information a lot more easily.

    The system could be improved, but the commander needs the ability to mark targets.

    Back in the day, it was 1 target per unit selection. You know how fucking annoying that was as commander?
     
  17. flounder

    flounder Member

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    Remove targetting and it won't be annoying at all.
     
  18. FalconX

    FalconX Developer

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    We're conducting a similar (if somewhat more civil :p ) discussion in the dev forums at the moment. We'll let you know the results as soon as we can.
     
  19. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    Lemme try and summarize the discussion here... I'll list all the various aspects of it, even the ones that seem a bit off to me. Someone tell me if I miss something.

    Issues people have with comm-targeting-wallhacks at the moment

    * Currently, comm-based wallhack-diamonds encourages the comm to spam attack-all orders over a wide area. There's no disadvantage, cost, or limitation to doing so, generally, beyond the comm's attention, patience, and how quickly their fingers get tired.

    * The above adds another layer of complexity to learning to comm, especially since area-attack-orders are not necessarily intuitive.

    * Some people just don't like wallhacks as a game mechanic.

    * Giving the comm red diamonds waters down the methods of getting wallhacks that 'cost' something -- the scout's abilities (which require being a scout), the engineer's sensors, and so on. It will also water down anything that's added in the future, if people want them.

    * Red diamonds nullify much of the advantage of cover, sneaking, and strategy. This wouldn't be so bad (sensors nullify it too, after all), except that there's not really any way to fight back against comm targets -- you can kill sensors or scouts (and at least they cost the enemy something to have on the field), but you can't do much about comm targets.

    * Wallhacks can interfere with a comm's ability to give other orders -- you can't give move orders as easily, say, or specific important individual-target attack orders, when you have to worry about overwriting your broad multi-target attack orders and putting your side at a disadvantage.

    * Wallhacks also interfere with a squad leader's ability to give orders -- they can easily overwrite their squad's wallhacks by accident.

    Concerns people have about changing/removing it:

    * The comm does need to be able to give attack orders somehow, probably. Any reduction in this would somewhat limit the comm's options for managing their team.

    * The comm has few enough ways to directly affect the battlefield already; this would take even more away, and leave comms with less to do in a mechanical sense.

    * The current advantage that comm targeting grants people is one of the few ways comms have at the moment to encourage people to listen to them; people will often ignore 'go here' orders, but at least with attack orders they'll know that they'll get to enjoy an advantage in combat if they kill the things you want them to.

    * No 'proper' tracking targets makes it harder to scream for everyone to hit the enemy CV, or another obvious-but-everyone-has-to-kill-it-now vehicle.

    * In general, weakening comm attack orders would likely weaken team cohesion a bit -- wallhack attack orders make it easy for the comm to encourage their entire team to focus on a few targets, in a way that few other things in the game can manage.


    Possible solutions

    * Simply taking away the comm's ability to put targets on units. This has the advantage of likely being very easy to do, but is rather heavyhanded and hits most of the objections.

    * Making it so targets are stationary and don't 'track' with whatever you put them on (this would require a delay to prevent effective wallhacking through constant re-targeting.) This could be confusing to troops, though, and does weaken the comm somewhat.

    * Make area targets highlight the general area for your troops, instead of laser-pinpointing; or target the center of the area, or something. This has the advantages/disadvantage of the one directly above, although it's a bit less confusing.

    * Refine the interface for comm-targeting, so the comm can more easily give wallhacks with a single click. This doesn't solve the people who hate comm wallhacks in general (in fact, on its own it makes it worse), but it does at least solve the interface / learning curve issues, making it more intuitive that granting wallhacks is something the comm has to do... and unlike the other suggestions, it actually makes the comm stronger rather than weaker in some ways, at least in terms of ease of interface (if done right.) Depending on how this works (if it affects an area and doesn't follow things), it could also fail to track enemies who flee, and could be difficult to pinpoint advancing opponents before they arrive... in this case it would weaken the comm again. Another disadvantage is that the 'simplified' system might make it difficult for the comm to just give wallhacks for the one person / squad they want to handle the issue; do any comms micromanage like that?

    * Add some kind of cost or limitation to comm wallhacks, so it becomes a strategic decision and not something you spam like mad on every fight (this could be combined with the above to solve more problems.)

    * Make comm wallhacks dependent on having some sort of structure or unit nearby, like a sensor, radar or scout. This would give people a way to fight back against comm-targeting, somewhat. The comm is still weakened a bit, and the limitations might not be intuitive; still, I personally like this one.

    ...some of those suggestions could be combined. Anyway, is that everything?
     
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2009
  20. mr_quackums

    mr_quackums Member

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    removing COM targetting but allowing a unti (eithe scout, squad leaders, or scouts only if they are squad leaders) to do the same thing. weakens com and lowers team cohesion, but squad cohesion could be improved (if it went to squad leader)
     

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