Refinery output boosting unit

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Mr. Weedy, May 21, 2009.

  1. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

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    This idea just struck me like a lightning from clear sky when I was browsing the suggetions forum.

    I'm not saying this suggestion in a way of "OMG IMPLEMENT THIS BECAUSE IT IS GOOD." But I'm more like just putting it here for discussion and I want to see what people think of it. Rather than they'll just go like OMG THIS IS SO OP OIMGMGOMGOGMOG LOLOLOL fail AND WHERE ARE ALL THE PROS AND CONS!? I'm not trying to get this implemented, thus no pros and cons, this is here to be talked about and I want to hear other people's opinions.


    Anyway. The idea is this. This unit would be researchable from mechanical tree and from somewhere there. Or from electrical. Bio, chemistry and physics don't feel like the right research trees for this.

    When this unit is researched, it could be placed on an already existing refinery like normal upgrade parts in other games are placed, on the already existing units which you feel like upgrading. (Technically the already existing model of the refinery would get removed and new model would be spawned with the upgrade unit on it. This would prevent the conflict of having to kill two buildings on top of the refinery spot instead of one as it should be.)

    The meaning of this refinery output boosting unit would be that it would increase the resource output of a refinery by 0.25x or 0.5x. Meaning that if a one refinery spot gives you 1 res per one sec, when you apply this upgrade unit on it, it would give 1.25 or 1.5 res per one sec now.

    I'm not sure about the cost of this unit but I think it should be a bit costy in the commander interface so it couldn't be easily spammed on all refineries. Maybe it could cost like... 300 res. Not much more than that because when you take into account the boost it provides, which is quite small, I think that price would be quite good. Maybe 350 if it gave 0.5x boost.

    Now the meaning of this unit; why it should exist.

    Well...

    To be honest. I don't exactly know why it should exist but I think the idea behind this unit was that if either team is blocked off from a certain area and they have no way getting there to get more refineries thus break through the other team's line of defences with more tanks, they could research this this unit to improve their refinery's output and gain a possibility to win the game. Instead of having to face almost certain loss of a game because other team has more res = they will get more tanks out with the same tech as the other team has = the team which holds more refs will eventually push through other team's defences with heavies and arty while the other team has only meds.

    This unit would mix up the chances of which team is winning. The winning of a map wouldn't depend any longer on the early game rushes and the fact how much ground and resource spots you can capture to yourself and hold.

    Even the team which has less resource spots and less ground, could still have the same amount of chances to win the game as the team which has more ground and resource spots.

    So...

    I'd like to hear your thoughts IN CIVILIZED MANNER.
     
  2. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    The problem is that if the losing team can afford to upgrade their refineries, the winning team can afford to upgrade theirs, and they have more of them so they'll get a bigger bonus.

    You are increasing the losing team's res, but you're increasing the winning team's res more, which negates the effect, and in fact makes it marginally worse.
     
  3. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

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    I'm not saying losing team vs winning team. I'm saying team which has more ground vs. team which has less ground.

    I tried to mean that the teams aren't obviously losing/winning at that time but it will be obvious later on if they stay in that situation and resources just keep stacking up.

    And true, that could be the situation but I would like to think that people won't be so single track minded that all commanders will go for these units right in the first place.
     
  4. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    The same problem applies, what works for one team works for the other.

    What if the team with more ground invested in one or two of these at the start? It will just make things much worse. They're just as likely to do it as the team with less ground.
     
  5. Caelo

    Caelo Member

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    unless you restrict it to lets say 3 units in the field..
    That way the team with only 4 refs would get a bigger boost than the team that has 8 refs..
     
  6. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    what about upgrading the actual building, while it shuts down as long as it upgrades (2 minutes for example, or you could make it so it has to be rebuilt by engies but this would make it easier to defend since people will be near)

    if the dominating team does this they will have to do it in small steps since otherwise they will cripple there economy, also if you make it relatively expensive (300 res for example) the losing team could do a guerrilla tactic where it tries to destroy the upgrading buildings while they are just upgraded (and thus costing the dominating team piles of res, since they didn't get resources from it while upgrading and they spend 300 res for nothing, + the original build cost and the replacement ref cost
     
  7. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Could work, but it would be more or less the same as just giving the CV the income of one refinery.
     
  8. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

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    True, that would work.

    And also this is researchable item. At least in the very beginning of the game there are two far more important items than this refinery booster, armor and engine.

    And if this will become more important than armor and engine to be researched the very first, then that means the boost given by this should be downgraded.

    Or maybe the boost amount could scale with the overal amount of refiniries the each team has... It would be similar way to Caelo's suggestion but it would be more dynamic.

    Edit: I think Blizzerd's idea is good too when it is combined with the rest. That way it wouldn't be so... simple to buy this thing. And yeah, I was thinking that this would have to be build in the same way as any other structure would have to be.

    Now when we add in the shut down and reboot time when the structure has been built I think it would be quite interesting, not to forget the dynamic resource amount scaling. ^^
     
    Last edited: May 21, 2009
  9. Caelo

    Caelo Member

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    Yeh I meant to say relatively bigger boost.

    And yes that would be almost the same thing IF the limit was set at 1 ref ;)
    Also the refs can be destroyed without ending the game, the CV cannot.
     
  10. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    you could also make it a pure researchable that costs a bit of time and can be researched a couple of times, if a team is in the disadvantage of having way fewer refineries, it could upgrade the refinery research (not do any other research) and thus be able to spam weaker tanks and gang up on the other team
     
  11. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    This would basically just be a 'win more' ability. If you can spare the research time and res to research it, you're already winning, regardless of the effect.

    ...and if you can't and research it anyway, it becomes a 'lose more' ability -- now you're even further behind on research. Every game that I've seen turned around (aside from random ninjas or CV kills, of course) has involved, in addition to the team doing really well, the CV being very, very careful to keep research going even when they're losing.

    This would basically be a trap for newbie comms.
     
  12. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

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    Hmm...

    So basically the main problems in the Empires are the territory control and researching.

    Territory control quarantees the other team bigger res the more territory and resource spots they have and because research is related to money the more money the other team has the more they will also own.

    Maybe the research should be depended on something else than money? Or there should be a lot less resource spots, maybe only 2-4 max. So both teams could have only one or two and then they would have to keep upgrading that one or two refineries to increase their money income.

    That way it wouldn't be automatically "I have more refs, I have more money, I have more research, I win."

    Then the commanders would have to choose whether they will hold the line with walls and lower technology but will eventually get more money per second and thus they will have better chances to get out more vehicles and at the same time spare some for better research.

    OR commanders could choose to improve their cheap lower tech vehicles with cheap researchable items such as better armors and engines and weapons BUT their refinery output only would allow smaller amount of vehicles on the field becaue its res per second ratio wouldn't be enough high and res income wouldn't be enough fast to support faster vehicle production.

    And the better armors, weapons and engines commanders would research the higher the costs would go and if people would like to use medium tanks, commanders would have to eventually upgrade their refineries to better ones so the refineries could have enough high money output to support those more expensive researches, vehicles and other things.



    What do you think of this idea? This way people could still upgrade the refineries but the game wouldn't be anymore so depended on territory control and researching. Well... It would still be depended on them but less depended on territory control and a bit less depended on researching.
     
  13. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    The thing is, the game is supposed to depend on refs and territory. That's the point. You're fighting to control ref nodes and, beyond that, the map. Why would you want to decrease the importance of ref nodes?

    Now, you might want to make it easier for someone who is behind to grab a bunch of ref nodes, and then catch up -- that'd be more interesting. But I would say that most of the time, victory should come through controlling the map.
     
  14. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

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    Basically I'm already thinking of this catch up thing but the way Empires plays now won't allow it because the defensive lines usually are just way too strong to break through them and capture the refinery spots or the areas which you just got are under too heavy fighting to keep the refineries safe and make them worth the risk.

    And that's your idea how the game is supposed to play. Let's not add in those ideas because everyone has a different view of how the game is played and you can't argue which taste is better than the other.

    People are different, they have different opinions, different preferences because of multiple things happened in their lives and family history and evolution and so on...

    All what I'm trying to wonder here with your help is that how to make the game not so see-through right from the beginning and not so early determined.

    So it wouldn't be just, rush, get as many refs as possible, hold them, get more money than the opposing team, get more vehicles than opposing team, get more research than opposing team, get more better vehicles than opposing team, push the line a bit more than opposing team, push through and win the other team with more superior technology and higher money amount.
     
  15. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    I hate it when people say that. Sure, you can invent whatever Empires you want in your head. You can have one where getting shot heals you and the first team to hit zero tickets wins, or where having your comm blown up makes your entire team invincible instead of losing you the game. Whatever.

    But the basic underlying assumptions of the game, right now, include the core idea that Empires is fundamentally a struggle to control res nodes and territory; that is an essential part of it being an RTS + FPS. Changing that is a huge deal, and I don't think you've really thought it through at all.

    Case in point:
    That sounds like how Empires is supposed to work to me, at the moment. You're supposed to have to struggle to grab and hold refs, but that's basically Empires' gameplay in a nutshell.

    So what exactly do you think your suggestion would be replacing this with? What do you want to see instead? How would you picture a typical game going? What represents team-based achievements in your vision of the game -- what are we cooperating to do? My team rushes out and grabs a bunch of res nodes, and yours... doesn't bother to contest them? You sit back and upgrade one res node?

    Do you want to reduce everything down to one fight over killing the enemy comm, with no real struggle beyond that? Would you like to eliminate resources and research entirely -- and if not, what role do you see them playing?

    The point is, you're approaching it from completely the wrong direction. Yes, sometimes a team fails to capture any res nodes and gets slaughtered. This is called losing. Suggesting that this be solved by making res nodes unimportant is like suggesting that losing your comm should be unimportant, because, you know, sometimes your comm gets blown up and you lose the game and it isn't fun.

    What you want -- what you should be focusing on -- is something to make that struggle over territory and res nodes more interesting. Nobody should just be able to sit on their ass and hold territory; it should be a constant, hard-fought struggle. You should be able to make comebacks, grab res nodes back, and catch up in research, sure -- but you should have to capture res nodes and territory. Capturing res nodes and territory is the heart of Empires gameplay; it's what most of the game's mechanics and systems are designed around.
     
  16. Mr. Weedy

    Mr. Weedy I will report bugs on the bug tracker

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    And here we go again with these ideas how Empires and other games are played there's no other way of playing it.

    First. Empires is different on RTS aspect than any other RTS game. Why? Because the sources of money aren't in your base. They are out there somewhere.

    In red alert 2 the gold mines are close to your base and if you feel like it, you can build a new base around other gold mine.

    In generals this is the same case. The resource is somewhere near you.

    Even in Hostile Waters the resource distrubition was so that the first resource which you got were close to you so you could defend them easily.

    In Empires the sources of resources are far away from your base, except that one or two resource spots which are inside your base defences but which won't be enough if you lose all the other resource spots.


    Basically you are saying that you like at matches which stand still for 30-60 mins until one breakthrough happens because of massive rush and that rush clears everything on its path within minutes and wins the game. Is that what you want to play? At first rush for the first 2 minutes to gain territory and resource spots, then stand still for the next 30 mins to get enough powerful vehicles to break through the chokepoint and then win?

    I'm working from the view that the game will have always chokepoints and when both teams reach those chokepoints the game will end up in stalemate because maps shouldn't benefit either team but they would have to give each team equal amount of winning chances.

    Thus the game is already determined for 90% sure within those first 2 minutes based on the amount of resource spots each team can capture-secure-and-hold.

    I want to see the game being more dynamic rather than just being waiting and holding the line and winning because the other team can't cumulate as much money as the other team can.

    I want to break that old form of "more resource spots captured than on enemy = win." Now it exactly that because empires revolves so much around the money, researched items and vehicles.

    This idea would break that formula. It would be no more "more than resource spots captured than on enemy = win," it would be "more than resource spots captured than on enemy = there is possibility of X% of win."

    If you like Empires being the struggle you described, then I don't understand why you came in this topic and wanted to bash this idea because it won't fit into your mind? Even this topic exists it doesn't mean if you don't like it, you don't have to comment about it.

    This topic is for those who like this idea, agree with parts of it and are willing to discuss to improve it.

    So.

    Could you please leave your emotions, own biased views and views how the game is meant to play rock solid everytime at the door while you step in this thread and talk about this idea in civilized manner as I asked before?

    If not, I don't see a point why you came here to rage. As I already told in the first topic, I'm not trying to include this idea in Empires, I'm trying to chat with people about this idea as the idea of forums originally was. To chat about things like in real life people chat to each other, just in slower phase.

    If you feel like I should stop talking about this idea in this topic, sure I will do so and I'll find people who like to talk about this.
     
  17. Aquillion

    Aquillion Member

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    If you are not trying to include this idea in Empires, and don't think it should be added to Empires, then why are you posting it in the suggestions forum? You posted it here, so I assumed you wanted it added to the game; given that, it's perfectly logical for me to say "No, I don't want that added to the game! It would make the game worse, in my view."

    If you don't want to suggested changing the game, then go talk about it in Gameplay or whatever. This is the suggestions forum; part of its purpose is to attract honest discussion and evaluation of suggestions, which includes criticism for suggestions that people feel are poorly-thought out or which go against the game's core design principals.
     
  18. Wertbarg

    Wertbarg Member

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    Ok, here are my two cents:
    In response to Aquillion, the game is (and should continue to be) based on refinery control. The reason why this is helpful to the team with less ground than the team with more ground is that if you have more refineries, then it is much harder to defend them, compared to the team with less territory, who can make the investment without fear of losing what they already have. The team with more ground could easily end up losing the resourses that they try to invest due to the fact that they cannot easily defend all the nodes. If the refinery upgrade is pricey enough (I like the 350 idea), and take a long time to upgrade, (lets say, 350 build points) and give no resources while upgrading, the team with more ground must be careful in what order they try to upgrade, otherwise they are risking an economic loss equal to that of a tank or a research bit. (buildings are also susceptible to being destroyed during an upgrade due to their greatly reduced health upon the initializing of the upgrade, making it even more important that the ground is very secure before investing)

    Of course, I agree with Aquillion that the game is still all about territory control, and a large number of un-upgraded refineries will easily out produce that of a upgraded starting base plus one, so by no means will the team with less territory have an advantage, but they will still have a fighting chance.

    EDIT: I support this idea.
     

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