I need to know if (and how hard) you guys are all going to rage when some of these server side settings are later removed. Here's the delima... Say you have a kickass mod named Empires, but no one can really agree on research or weapon performance. Others want to tweak class skills or the points required to unlock them. So the developers decide they should open up the settings to all this by putting it server side. Now every server has their own assortment of settings, research, weapons, etc. Now logically one of two things will happen. Either the most popular servers will end up with the best scripts, or the servers with the best scripts will become the most popular servers. Either way in something like six months there will be a consensus "best" set of scripts (maybe a top 2 or 3). There will always be sects of people who prefer different settings, but as a whole something balanced and fun should emerge. At this point steamworks comes along. If you inject a few thousand new players into the mod, and every server has a different damn set of EVERYTHING, it's going to be a total cluster fuck. This will hurt the mod more than just about anything I can think of. Imagine every server with totally different weapon performance (but the same models) and completely different research. Imagine every server having a different flavor of heavy tank, and different weapons that do different things. Super armors in some trees, shit armors in others. Imagine trying to remember research paths when there are 30 different trees. So... at this time I believe the only long term solution is to open the script_manifest to the public, but take it away before going to steamworks. During the time script_manifest is available the "best" scripts would be determined and adopted into the official version of the mod. I need to know the level of rage this will produce, or if I'm missing something that will make this a non-issue.
From what I can tell, anyone without this knowledge (non-forum-goers) will completely WTF. This is a good idea NOW, however, because there are only 2-3 MAJOR servers. My .02c. It's a risk/reward now, or never.
We could encrypt the scripts and handle the decryption key only to trusted scripters and change the key every version.
think its basically a good idea - evolutionary development so to say - suvival of the fittest. tho with our current small playerbase i see the issue with ppl only joining the most populated server at a time. also if the stats are not clearly visible when you choose a research you might end up with awesome research at the one server while on another one its completely different and shitty. it will be hard to tell whats good and where. same with the weapons. and the skills. if BECAR is good on one server it might even be non existent on another one. and im not sure if you can choose the server ... if you look at how it is atm ... ppl join the server where most ppl play - me included. so you might not end up with the best script, only with the scripts from the severs that have a wider playerbase by default or "noobs welcome" in their name ... does that make sense? i hope
It's doubtful, provided the popular servers don't put shit scripts in to play. If the three most popular (G4TC, Viper, ELC) all put something so unplayable that it was no longer fun, you could bet your last dollar that whatever servers have good scripts would become the popular ones. Do I expect that kind of result? No, but IF the popular servers don't provide fun scripts and someone else does it's logical that the players will move. Makes sense, but I think over time the "server where most ppl play" would change if the scripts there were horrible. I really feel sorry for noobs during this open script_manifest period... gonna be a rough ride for them.
IMO keep it for now, remove it for steamworks, then reintroduce it again when the devs stop developing again.
well but thats exactly what i think is one of the major downside of this. dunno who would do scripting for ELC, but in the end youd end up with 2 scripts (1 for elc and 1 for viper and g4tcmain) you aswell could ask trickster, who undoubtably would do the ones for g4tc servers (thats main PLUS viper), right away to give them to you to include them. idk what would you think of letting ppl send you scripts, you set up playtests and collect feedback, then decide which ones you release?! another issue i have is that, unless you completely redesign the UI, you wont be able to tell what items fit you. you wont be able to tell where a certain item is located in the tech tree (especially when there are more complex like the ones robotek made) or how usable this particular infantry weapon is in a certain situation - atm you can just open the txt files and take a look - if you need to do that for each server, it might get too complicated. it all might sound interesting now - but i see downsides of that rigth away. idk how many more fuck-ups the mod can take (may i remind you on that small arty mistake and how many left there?)
Right, so soundspawn becomes a dev and within 2 weeks proposes a lockdown on community-driven content promised to us in 2.25 so he can become the sole progenitor of empires balance? Bite me. I saw your ideas for scripts, and they are retarded. We may as well just make a Rock tree, a Paper tree and a Scissors tree if we're going to go your route.
me now? i havnt proposed any scripts, nor do i intend to make any for empires ... also i dont get the poll, does that mean removing them before steamworks is released or right away?
Wow, just wow. If you saw my tree (maybe you did, but if so you're not observant enough to see the obvious) you'd notice that all three armor types are in not only the same tree, but the same research item. It's also a tree with no weapons or engines figured out, and a concept created before I was even considering joining the dev team. I haven't worked on it since the night I came up with the concept, and don't plan on developing it further because I want something created by the community (and I have a larger task now) but I don't want EVERYTHING created by the community. Maybe you missed these parts: "in something like six months there will be a consensus 'best' set of scripts (maybe a top 2 or 3)" and "During the time script_manifest is available the 'best' scripts would be determined and adopted into the official version of the mod." Are you upset because PreDominance suggested destroyable ammo boxes after you and I acknowledged his post? Is your blood sugar low or something? "...on community-driven content promised to us in 2.25..." Community Driven means the community drives change, like... I don't know... People make suggestions in a suggestions forum, and developers look over the suggestions and offer feedback or something crazy like that. Script manifest would be community-created content, and promising that is insane if you want the playerbase to grow. How about you, instead of being a dick and accusing me of things, explain how script_manifest can stay enabled and new players can enjoy and understand the game? How about you help me understand how we can make that work, because currently I don't have an answer, and eventually the lack of an answer will lead to disabling the feature. I'm open to suggestions, but claiming I'm trying to control balance is just silly and nothing more than libel.
Clarified poll. I'm talking something like a year from now, after we've had a lot of time for the community to create scripts and once we are at a point where there are widely regarded "best" scripts that we could adopt as official.
Irrelevant. Rock, Paper, Scissors armor doesn't add one iota of fun to empires. OH NO THEY'RE USING GRASS POKEMON WE NEED FIRE POKEMON doesn't work when all the tanks look the same no matter what armor or damage type you're using, and furthermore, just isn't fun. Using a grass type tank and dying just because your opponent is using fire type tanks really isn't fun for anyone and makes no sense. Oh, I didn't miss it. I'm just opposed to any removal of community control. When and where you want to remove the control doesn't matter to me in the slightest. Get real. The steep learning curve is false. I knew everything I needed to know about fighting on foot when I started playing this game a year ago within the first two days. OMG counterstrike with tanks! How hard is that to learn? It took learning to command longer, but that's to be expected. Adding new, flavorful, and varied scripts would barely change what the average infantryman needs to know about playing empires. It's mainly a commander thing, and honestly, we commanders need more reasons to command anyway. Flavor variety scripts would be a huge benefit. Quite simply, what you propose to be a problem, isn't. There is no negative consequence to more content, especially when it's all 100% optional. I would even like to see the community be able to create and import their own models for tanks, weapons, and infantry. The only possible consequence I could see from this is that the developers would lose some of their creative control over the game, and I really couldn't be bothered to care about something like that. I think the developers, instead of worrying about their own futures, should try to move as much stuff as possible over to scripts and focus on making empires more open-ended. No, ever since you banned me for asking you to ban a griefer who recycled our main rax, I've known you were 'touched.'
Another way to mitigate this is to create a server filter for 'official' script servers. Killing Floor does this so you can easily find official/stat-collecting servers. I'm still for allowing server-side scripting at the moment, because it would greatly enhance testing. Essentially, you could turn the current playerbase into one giant beta-testing group. If there has been one thing lacking since 2.12, its been effective playtesting.
The only thing about this that worries me is that, if every server were to drastically differ, then it might drive away players. For instance.. Newb A: Joins Empires Newb A: Joins Server_1 Newb A: Learns reflective is good armor. Gas Turbine is so-so. Extended_Range is great! Newb A: Sleeps. Zzzzzz *Next_Day* Newb A: Joins server_2 Newb A: Dies with 3 reflective/GT/ER MK2's because he does not know they suck on this server. Although a bit stretched, this is what I'm afraid of. Also, is the text changeable (Item_X weighs this much on server_a, Item_Y weighs this much on server_b)?
How can people start bitching about a feature we don't even have yet being possibly removed in a patch that may not exist yet.
Then you missed the part where the tanks would have their looks adjusted, possible solutions could be hue adjust to show armor type or sprite effect upon taking damage. You do realize that the current armor is rock/paper/scissors, right? That was simply a different angle for the same concept. You want the mod to be modded instead of improved by devs... You don't see a problem in the idea that the mod would go in tens of different ways and basically wouldn't be Empires at all, it'd just be an open RTS/FPS engine for the community to sandbox in. You're still upset about a one day ban a month ago? Let's not call it "asking you to ban a griefer who recycled our main rax" because that's not what happened. I banned you for freaking out because I didn't ban the guy. You were spamming chat with "OMG THIS SERVER IS SO DOOMED" "U R THE WORST ADMINS EVER" etc because you said he griefed when he didn't. The guy was an idiot, but here's the funny part, he wasn't even in the comm vehicle. There was him and three other guys all standing next to the CV building a repair pad, anyone could have just jumped in. Basically that entire team was incompetent and you wanted me to ban a noob who didn't know what he was doing. I'd have slayed him but again, nothing was stopping any of the team from jumping in comm. That guy also built a radar but never researched anything... he didn't know how to play. I removed you because you were being disruptive, there's better ways to get what you want than throwing a fit. You could have joined spec and used voice to alert me of something if he had griefed before that point or talked to me like not-a-dick, but from the time I noticed the chat of you claiming grief until the match was over, nothing was wrong and you wouldn't stop.
lol wat? Do we play the same game? You do realize that the current armor is reflective/reflective/reflective, right? Nothing to see here. Carry on. The guy was not a noob, he was a griefier. Still, you did not ban his ass. You escalated the conflict when you took the position that griefers should not be punished for griefing. You can count on me to flame anyone's retarded ass any time they do something stupid, and now that you're a dev I'm sure you and I are going to have plenty of fun times to look forward to in the future.
I pretty much feel the same personally, but absorbant is paper to rails rock. DUMG (and HEMG?) is rock to reflectives scissors. There are the same patterns but they present themselves as "specialty perks" for the armors. I think to find tune balancing there needs to be less of that, but I'm reserving judgment, if the community likes it, it will be in there. He was a noob, although he may have been a griefer too in the sense that he may have griefed the team. I did not escalate anything, I evaluated it, and the only witness to the alleged grief was belligerent and worthless for information. I looked with my own eyes as he and three other engis played patty cake on a repair pad (while yet another person was trying to un-jacknife his AFV from the same pad, don't know how he got it sideways) and no one bothered to steal the CV from him. Flaming asses will not get you far with me, take a calm, reasonable approach to get results. Take the childs method to get put in time out. I'm still willing to listen to your advice but freaking out isn't going to fly.
