My take on the new version.

Discussion in 'General' started by katana9000, Jan 27, 2008.

  1. katana9000

    katana9000 Member

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    I have to say while some things have improved massively. (ex. The new walls look awsome, the new animations and models are great, etc.) I have to say the core priciple of the game has done a turn for the worse. "Gameplay."

    1. First and formost the most important and neccisary fix that was needed in 1.08 above ALL else... was the transfer of the scout from "sniper" to "inflitrator." Sadly not only did you make the sniper MORE absurdly powerful with the fact he can now one shot kill if you hit them in the head, two anywhere else. But you also gave him the sabatage skill to double his effectiveness. This alone has completely ruined most of the matches I've played. I can't believe Krenzo didn't listen to the 90% of players screaming at him to fix this.

    2. From the new combat and damage system this game in no way still feels like empires to me anymore. It's supposed to be a rts/fps blend. Its feels so purely fps that I no longer believe that. Its basically BF 2142 with resources to buy vehicals. The rts elements of a shootout are non-existant with you now dieing from five rounds comming from a 20 rounds per second rifle. Its a shoot first and win scenario. I'm not quite sure how to describe this but it no longer feels like the game I fell in love with.

    I'm sorry to say it but I no longer enjoy this game at all. If not to see some old friends playing I wouldn't have even played as long as I have over this past week. I also held off judgement on these matters for a while to make sure I wasn't missing something or being biased based on just a bad match or two.

    I guess all I can do is hope that in future versions that the game will revert to being fun again.
     
  2. Androc

    Androc Member

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    Hang on a second, you say you wanted the infiltrator role buffed, but then you complain about sabotage? Do you even know what you're trying to say?
     
  3. The Buttery Lobster

    The Buttery Lobster Drama Queen.

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    also, if you're playing on servers with increased resource flow that really pulls emphasis away from the battle for money and conservation of power and turns it into a battle to see who can spam the most tanks. Don't judge the game from such servers.

    But you and I are clearly watching different games if you call the scout powerful-or even the least bit effective. I have heard, and continue to hear, people complaining about how their team has 'too many damn scouts,' shortly before their team loses terribly. Lord knows I say it all the time, and I am sure that I can find more then one vet who agrees with me. More people may be playing scouts but I don't think scouts are much more effective. You may find getting sniped annoying (I sure do) and thus remember it happening more often then other game elements, but take solace in the fact that while they have half their team playing as scout, no one is building the refinery behind them, or assaulting the chokepoint ahead, or destroying the apc about to blow up their base. No, they're just 'requesting artillery support!' over and over until the other half of the team is ready to punch somebody.

    As for infantry weaponry, all I can say is that at least it's far more balanced then when you had a BEAR death laser. It would be interesting to see how the game would change if everyone started with 150 hp, i suppose....

    Also I agree with androc. I'm getting mixed messages.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  4. katana9000

    katana9000 Member

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    Thought I was clear on that Androc. But I'll restate it differently. I was complaining about the scout having been made stronger in "BOTH" roles. It should have been that the scout rifle was either removed or so that the work that was done on the rifle wasn't wasted, that it be changed into a light mg. THEN add the sabotage skill in. Not make the scout rifle MORE powerful and then add the sabotage skill in on top of that.

    Buttery: I played on wide range of servers. 4-5 of them I believe. And unless they ALL had those settings then that can't really be an issue. As for the "too many damn scouts" ever think that may be because everyone "wants" to be the overpowered class? Yes if "everyone" on that team goes scout then they are indeed going to lose. But if half go scout/sniper then you effectively elimate infantry warfare. Its all tanks and snipers. Now lets looks at levels like emp_district and escort. Those maps either completely remove vehicals or limit them to just a few. Now on district its not "too" bad as scout/snipers are only effective at the end of the long streets. But on the other are god-like in the open areas. Another good example map would be isle with almost no cover whatsoever. (Not that it would help much.) Its not that they are the "game winning class" they are the "noob grabs a scout and makes the game crap for everyone else class." That works on both sides too. For the team wasting members on them, to the other team being killed before they can even leave the barracks. If you seriously take away that damn rifle you have a PERFECT class. Stealth in and sabatage/kill enemies bases. Thats what they should be.

    As for the weaponry. I agree its MUCH more balanced than back in 1.06 where the BE rifle owned all. My complaint is that its near perfectly accurate fired from the hip even over moderate ranges. Which is completely unrealistic and negates the need for finding a good place for cover. Or even using crouch or aim. Also the rate of fire is massively higher than it was back in 1.06. This however is not a game breaking mechanic. Its just one I personally dislike. And I believe is a sign that empires will soon lose what makes it unique.
     
  5. Shinzon

    Shinzon Member

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    The scout is not over powered if anything its annoying... A single good scout can hold out against lone wolves; but if the other team smartens up; its easy to take down a single scout, go rifleman and outgun the bastard; or fight fire with fire...

    When tanks are thrown into the mix; scouts are just blown to hell. Tanks and APC's negate any range advantage the scout gains from range, and if the scout wants to go in and sabotage; the scout rifle sucks at close range; while the SMG's are death...

    remember that this is an FPS; and if the weapons are not deadly enough, people will simply rush past eachother, and tactics like the 9 mine will become more effective; as the enemy can dance around you more easily...

    If a scout can get a headshot on you across the map; then good for the scout; if he picks you off running alone in the open, then the scout is doing his job; picking off lone wolves, if he kills you while you are repairing your tank; hes doing his job... The scout is supposed to harras, but against anything coordinated the scout is useless...

    In the earlier versions; some weapons felt like peashooters; while others were overpowered and this made for many "WTF" moments... A bad Commander will still loose you the map, so Empires is an RTS, but if its an FPS as well; so unlike in an FPS; people cannot be standing still while shooting eachother with pea guns.

    All weapons hurt... It doesnt matter what you are shooting; if you get hit it hurts, so use covar, and work with a team like an engineer with revive or such. If guns are reduced enough in damage; a similar effect to that an engy repairing a guy while a turret is constatly shooting is what you will get...

    I dont want to unload 5 clips into an enemy to find out that he is only down to 1/2 HP, because of the fast RoF you can actualy "Dodge" most rifleman untill their clips run out and then come out and whack them in the head, sure doing this will rape you down to 1/3 HP, but it is not who "Fired First"
     
  6. The Buttery Lobster

    The Buttery Lobster Drama Queen.

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    When I say 'too many damn scouts' I mean I see 3 scouts on a 10 man team, and 2 of them are being utterly useless, and our team is swearing at them asking them to change classes.

    From what I can REMEMBER-this is just recollection without keeping track of it- most scouts are just dicking around useless with a less then 1:1 k/d ratio. But I just assumed this was the norm, and I've come to ignore the scouts on our team and try and pretend they don't exist, so I can't really analyze the situation without bias. I'll be sure to keep an eye out for this sort of thing in the next few games I play.

    But I rarely if EVER worry about scout sabotage, that much I'm 100% positive of. Personally, I think it's nearly useless- it's only effective on turrets, because everything else is repaired in seconds. When I see any other enemy class in or near the base, I start to worry. When I see purple smoke in the base, I become mildly irritated, as if swatting a fly.

    As for weapons, I can see what you're saying. As long as we're clear on the BALANCE of the guns, that is. I, for one, enjoy games that make infantry combat as painful as icepicks in your genitals--it's why I like that western mod that R_Yell is making. That game has no automatic fire, only semi-automatic and MOSTLY single shot guns. Hell, that's why I enjoyed the semi-automatic scout rifle when I first picked up empires and why I'd probably enjoy it now if I didn't view the class with so much derision. (And it probably would be why I would enjoy the muskets of bg2, if the devs hadn't fucked that mod up so much)

    I can't really remember 1.06 weapons other then the unbalancing part, but I can see how--I guess you'd call it a feature creep variant--has made all the guns much more powerful. A balanced power, but still overpowered as a whole. I wouldn't be against just kind of toning them all down a bit, albeit toning them down equally amongst all classes. And I would just LOVE to see the scout be more strategically useful and less sniperish, but I've always been of that mindset.


    I mean, right now, the easiest way to kill infantry units isn't even with a tank mg, it's with the HE cannon, because the tank mg isn't half the gun that any infantry based rifle or smg is. You're better off just carrying a teammate in your tank and having them get out and shoot the infantry rather then you even bother with them. I suppose this is ok... idk... I'm kind of torn on that issue.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  7. katana9000

    katana9000 Member

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    Shizon: At least we both agree its annoying. Unfortunity its much worse than that. While indeed any one of its skills makes it a class of its own. Its the fact that its effecient at multiple classes. First off sniping in this game is the worst idea period. The maps (most of them) make this superior over ANY class. (Wide open ones which consist of roughly 50%+ of them.) Now you state its meant to kill "lone wolves" now I know you have enough experience and sense to admit it can kill a hell of a lot more than that. I've seen one pick of a group of 6 riflemen "behind cover" on canyon. Since the scout was half a map away, and stealthed, and prone. There wasn't a damn thing they could do but die, now your thinking... Roll a tank and get him! Heh... good luck finding him stealthed, under cover, and prone. Thats 10+ mins wasted just to have him come back in two. So then you might say... Ignore him. Yeah thats real easy to say when everyone has a tank. Thats not always possible, if fact its down right rare bar a few maps. Irritating doesn't even begin to scratch the surface.

    Now as for the weapon balances... Like I told buttery I agree in every way that they are indeed WAY more balanced than 1.06. My real complaint here is that it removed a sort of rts'ish feel to it. Now its a simple point click kill. And while this is way more realistic, its much less fun. Though I do agree in some situations this caused problems. I'll drop this as a complaint as its reallly just a personal prefference. And hasn't ruined any games... Though has made them less fun. (Less epic shootouts.)

    Buttery: 3 to a team? Last 4 games I played I've seen at least half the teams made of scouts in the end. (This isn't the case on ALL maps, just most of them. Streets of fire for example, I rarely ever see one.) Now you say useless? Perhaps in some situations. But in many situations they are damn near god-like. Like when we had one of them on BOTH sides of the NF barracks. You COULD NOT leave without getting killed. Even when four of us left at the same time we died before reaching cover. (Was the only barracks.) And yes sabatage does little to hinder most things minus turrets. But it takes a hell of a lot longer than a second to repair. It kills half health and takes 1 second to sabatage. (Note I'm not complaining about sabatage, just the fact that scouts have BOTH.) Now if ever map was in enclosed small areas with tons of cover yes sniper/scouts would indeed be no better than every other class. But thats simply not the case. Maps are mostly wide open with little to absolutely zero cover.

    As for weapon damages... Same as above. I guess I can get used to it. But it simply isn't as fun as it used to be. I can play any other fps and get the same if not better experience.

    Honestly though... I know Krenzo will never fix the sniper/scout. He's said for far to long he will and hasn't so I had expected it not to happen. But then on top of that... He makes them even more powerful. Angry? That doesn't even begin to explain how I feel.
     
  8. REX

    REX Member

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    Yes it have changed a lot, but we havent noticed it much since it mostly happened over 30+RCs during testing.

    I had not experience the instant too many scouts team failure until recently when I played Cyclopean and I joined ingame as my team made it from NF base to both city and NW corner first. I was optimistic, but then I thought why the hell is everything just standing there unbuild but then I hear the the comm go insane over the mic because we had 7 scouts out of 13 people and none of them changed/cared :headshot: raped in a few min.

    I think the scout should just be remaned to specialist and get a carbine version of the existing AR or something... shotgun? whatever and maybe a few new tricks. Scouts right now just raise the blood pressure of the enemy team players IRL and are not really that fun also mostly one of the least teamplayers ever they just go off on their own most of the time playing shooting gallery.
     
  9. katana9000

    katana9000 Member

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    I also tested 1.08's RC versions. (Upto RC28 anyway.) And I still noticed quite a leap. (Perhaps I just didn't test them enough.) Anyway, I agree complettely that scout needs to remade to a specialist class of sorts. EVERYONE has at one point. And replacing their pwnage cannon with a shotgun has been suggested over, and over, and over, and over again. Still nothing has gotten through to Krenzo apprently. He has said many many times its not meant to be a sniper. And yet here we are with the most abusrdly obvious sniper yet. It helps nobody, and pisses everyone off. And yet here it remains. Krenzo all I have to say to you (If you read this) is that I once hailed you as an awsome guy that made one of the best games ever. You've become someone I can never expect to listen to anyone with valid complaints (Even when it was the entire damn community.) I now fully understand why Eth0 went from loving you to hating your guts. I'm sure it was over something just like this.
     
  10. LordDz

    LordDz Capitan Rainbow Flowers

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    This smells like the people in wow saying ''it was better before'', well before they didn't have BG etc.

    Games change, live with it. :)
     
  11. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    In my whole empires carrier only one time a scout was able to win a game by sabotaging the barracks so we take it down fast enough.

    You can take out almost every scout as a rifleman or grenadier bevor he gets you its not really hard and hide isnt so stealty. Most scouts die because they dont know that engineers can build cameras.
     
  12. katana9000

    katana9000 Member

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    First off I don't play wow and never will. Secondly, games do indeed change. But I do not have to live with it. Something tells me you never even played any of the versions before 1.08.

    PS: Sorry Mayama didn't notice your post... As I've said several times it has NOTHING to do with winning or losing using scouts. Its the pain in the a** factor they provide. That deducts immensly from the game. And no... Riflemen and grnadiers can NOT easily kill a scout. (With rare exceptions, small enclosed spaces, or the scout is just a complete idiot.) Almost always your rifleman or grenadier is going to get 1 or 2 shot killed with incredible ease from so far away you couldn't even see the scout. Let alone shoot him.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  13. petemyster

    petemyster Member

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    one thing i hate, is people make suggestions and moan (im not saying your moaning, but others do), but they don't make a suggestion on how to fix the problem, so what would you suggest to make it more stratgic.
     
  14. Private Sandbag

    Private Sandbag Member

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    I never found the scout rifle to be a problem, a little dodging, a little weaving, and you can usually get to the scout and blast him away. the scout rifle is certainly not better than any of the riflemans weapons- I'd put it on par with the SMG.
     
  15. katana9000

    katana9000 Member

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    You can't be serious. I've given about 5 different suggestions over my last few posts. Did you read anything beyond the first sentence? I would never complain about something without offering a solution.

    Sandbag: Well you and I obviously have two very different points of view. Tell you what, lets test it. We do a 1 on 1 inf match on an empty server. I'll be scout and you can be any other you desire. I will bet I completely annihilate you. (Barring vehicals use, and it be on an open map like most are like canyon, dustorm, isles, etc.) And I'll be happy to show you what you "should" find them absurd in any inf. combat senario.
     
  16. Private Sandbag

    Private Sandbag Member

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    hehe, sure, any map you like. dust storm?
     
  17. katana9000

    katana9000 Member

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    Sounds good. Name the time and server.

    Oh and Avair, I'm sure buttery meant either the common mg. Or the chaingun. The most commonly use two. Yeah hit an inf with Depleted Uranium round and their toast. Thats not an easy thing to do though.
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  18. petemyster

    petemyster Member

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    lol i mis-read. I glanced at it and picked out "It's supposed to be a rts/fps blend. Its feels so purely fps that I no longer believe that". Which i elaborated as it wasn't stratgic enough. And then as you explained about the weapon balancing, i was like "yeah...and how do you propose you fix the "lack of stratgic-ness". So sorry ^^

    EDIT: *sigh* the story of my life
     
    Last edited: Jan 27, 2008
  19. Cheezy

    Cheezy Member

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    I don't find scouts particularily effective most of the time. It doesn't take much to avoid the sniper rounds either. You could always place a few walls if you're getting hit.

    The only reason I go for scout is to saboutage the enemy base if I have an opportunity. The scout is not at all overpowered imo. I get more kills by going engineer.
     
  20. FishThePirate

    FishThePirate Member

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    Scouts are a nuisance at best. I'm not really afraid of them, even at long distances. I don't see them as particularly deadly, they can kill one infintry at a time and it usually takes two shots if they're lucky (most of their shots miss).

    I do agree with you though that the scout needs to have more reconnaissance ability. Spotting isn't that useful (especially since the can only spot one target), cameras and commander marks are much more useful. The sabotaging was a great addition I thought, but I feel like it's not enough.
     

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