Mk2's were a horrible idea, they completly negate mediums. And it was pretty obvious that they were snuck in at the last second without testing (the kill icons arn't even correct). If ANYTHING, they should've applied to mediums (but don't do this until the rest of the game is balanced aghhsadasfasf). I don't want see MkII's for a long time.....
If the Empires devs start listening to this forum full of retards, griefers and whiners then everything is indeed lost. Evaluate changes with your testers and discuss it internally. Also: Fixed.
Before the game used to have a distinct feel between lights and meds and heavies, now mediums feel like an extension to mark twos, and mark twos feel like an extension to lights. I don't like that, there's no high point of getting a med after using a light for some time, I used to love getting meds after maybe fifteen minutes of fighting with limited light tanks, now I just get meds because I like the model better, but it doesn't feel like much of an improvement over my mark two, or even my base light for that matter, what with the armor buffs. Before it used to be that paper lights were crap, armored lights were useful but not very good, mediums were solid, and heavies were awesome. Heavies are still quite awesome, mediums are still solid tanks, but lights are also solid tanks, and mark twos are solid tanks which can do most things you need a tank to do. Hence mediums are devalued by powerful lights and especially mark twos. I recognise that buffing standard armor was a good idea to make the early game a bit more noob friendly, but I don't like that lights on both teams have been made as useful as they are once you research armors for them, and I especially don't like mark twos blurring the line between lights and mediums.
A big part of the effectiveness of a chassis is based on external influences, I do realize that the margins between the chassis are becoming extremely thin now that chassis in general has lost many of it's weaknesses (bad starting armor), they are also becoming more maneuverable and their firepower has been shifted dramatically since past versions; which add to this. The extreme of this is that chassis have all become more or less the same, sharing only the most basic distinction of tanks as a game play element, and losing all their unique differences per chassis. I'm aware of this and appreciate all feedback to come up with a good solution, right now the model is that indeed things are being simplified, removing all the unique rules created by these minor differences, that all require a different approach when either using or going against them. What I was trying to say with the last is that the use and the counter can vary wildly per customization that it means that every player needs to memorize and experience all these little details to become a good player, or actually enjoy the game for what it is. Which results in the steep learning curve that scares off people, or makes them only touch the surface of the game before they stop playing it for whatever reasons. I do appreciate feedback on this and am constantly thinking of ways to accomplish a good balance between the above mentioned flip sides. Right now, I'm trying to smooth out the phases of the game, by allowing the elements that define these phases, mainly firepower, to be spread out more evenly, as well as allowing for more customization. Everyone knew before hand that meds and heavies might become pointless with the addition of MKII's, I can't predict the future, all I do is read the numbers and base it on designs, what I see is that all chassis have their merits, and this isn't based on some shady idea of tanks, it's based on how the game was originally envisioned (tank specializations), or atleast from what I've gathered from the original design document; and general balance implementation in RTS, the FPS part of this would be more or less only the model and proportions of the tanks, and their dodging and firing capabilities. For a big part the latter is out of my reach and very hard for me to fit into the equation, the only thing that helps is real playtesting.
The idea of MK II's is not that bad actually, however as they render meds useless. Whats about adding Med MK II's (=Advanced Chassis) (and reblancing AFVs LTs so LT isnt mega-super overpowered anymore)? Not sure what Med MK II's should be like; maybe 3x CN slot or something interessting like 3xMG slot, 2 times 2xMG slot, or a 2xGL slot. They would get some of the apc's weaponary then making it "non apc only" and are some kind of "more powerful" tanks with APC weapons. I kinda think Meds with GL launchers would be interessting; double HE MG or Combo HE MG/ bio MG tanks might be overpowered though (3x 50cal/DU MG fits better here ).
All chassis don't have their merits though, the game was and still is about getting the best tank (heavies) while not losing due to the enemy getting one of the tanks in between lights and heavies (mediums or more recently, mark twos). The only reason to get anything other than heavies is because you need it to avoid losing before heavies become available, and for that mediums served adequately. I really don't see how mark twos add to the game, all they do is give you a 'light and a half' chassis which is just as unspecialised as a medium tank and follows the exact same idea of 'more guns + more armor = better' but which removes the variety from the game as a whole by turning it into a steady increase in power rather than having a few major chunks in there. You don't want a huge gap between two stages but you also don't want no gap at all, especially not when the gap is filled with horrible tanks which get overused and everyone is sick to death of playing with. There were never unique rules for each chassis, the rules were simply 'cheaper tanks are worse, expensive tanks are good'. The distinction was between having a bad tank and a good tank, like having a pistol and a machinegun, they both shoot where you point and they both kill people, one just has more ammo and shoots faster making it better. But you do the exact same thing, and it wasn't hard to learn. Now of course you have lights operating completely differently from heavies and mediums, which would seem to be counterproductive, that doesn't simplify the game, it makes it more complicated, as does having more chassis in the game anyway, especially ones which are so different from each other which the LT and the AFV currently are, and not just in terms of having completely different weapons. Lights, mediums, and heavies have been quite adequately spaced apart for some time now, mediums take a bit too long to get but you can shorten that amount of time with research balancing, you don't need to add another chassis in, there's simply no reason to and it doesn't add anything while it does make the game more complicated and less fun overall.
Currently bad idea because the core balance is biased so the MK IIs multiply that bias even more. MK IIs are small, fast, agile and cheap over MEDs and they are enough powerful not to bother with heavies so why research anything else? They are ok idea but they need trade-offs. Like, if you add a 2 slot weapon on it, then the LT wouldn't have any chance to have any armor at all without buying, for example, some "chassis upgrade" parts to make the chassis lighter again and have weight left for armor. Of course this would increase their price. That kind of trade-offs I miss in MK IIs. Like, if firepower goes up, then armor goes down, hence price has to go up so armor can go up too. Currently it is, use money to research and spend some time with the research, buy MK IIs and pwn. No trade-offs. Artillery has a trade-off too: It has very long range hence its visibility is limited.
Bah, adding the Mark II was probably the single stupidest decision I have ever seen in these updates, I mean honestly 2.2, ok yeah you're re-writing weapons scripts cool, we understand, 2.21, you tried to fix the weapons again, cool, 2.23... they added in stronger versions of the same vehicle? What? That doesn't fix shit! That makes no sense, it's an illogical solution and it also made no point, it was like throwing a 5th wheel onto a damned car!
I have nothing against adding more stuff, so i'm not against adding a new chassis either. I don't mind (much) if the differences between each becomes less important, though i do want to see what's coming at me, so a visual difference between mk's is imo a must. My problem with the current vehicles has most likely nothing to do with adding or not a new chassis, but the balancing itself. As long as that core problem exists it makes no difference what chassis or engines the game has to offer, as nothing would make it fun for me as the core problem would still be there. I can't test mk2's when i just dislike the vehicle system as i'll just go "I didn't enjoy it". There's 3 things that imo need to be adjusted first, one of which the devs seem to be doing something about already (that i know of): 1) lt's vs afv's 2) lt awesomeness against ... well anything, from antitank infantry to heavies to huge bases with defenses 3) ineffectiveness of antitank units against tanks The first is being worked on i think The second is just the most annoying thing every. Once 1 lt gets through the 10 lines of walls in for example canyon, you're dead unless you manage to close that gap before other lt's can get through. Which is odd cause it's the weakest and cheapest vehicle that doesn't even requires researching, yet you have to organise everything entirely with only them in mind. "Ignore the heavy guys there's an lt getting through, you can kill that heavy later but if that lt gets through we won't be able to catch him untill after he took out half of our team and our 2 expensive arties". It all comes down to wall blocking, which becomes boring. The third was annoying, but can be ignored while problem 2 is still here. Still if problem 2 ever gets fixed, please do realise that this problem will come back. Heavies and mediums are formidable tanks, which they should be. The problem is they're so formidable, that - especially heavies - often just ignore infantry. When they're shooting at a rax of course they're not gonna waste time by killing the few grenadiers first. He can literally take down the rax first, then kill all grens targetting him, retreat and repair. More often than not i can use ALL grenadier starting ammo on 1 single heavy without getting through his armor if the driver is smart enough to turn his chassis. 6 hits on 1 side is no guarantee at all that you breached his armor there, and even if you did he will just turn his body and you have to start all over again. If he does decided to shoot at you, his mg will often kill you in a single second. True there's rpg upgrade, and i can't say how good that is, cause i have no idea when it's researched. Hopefully it is effective but just doesn't get researched. After that add the mk2 if you want. My personal suggestion: - Add mk2 - The mk1 is accessible from start and hasn't cost anything to research, so it can be as bad as we want. If it's possible to do this make it impossible to equip it with anything other than standard armor, standard engine, and standard CN/ML/MG (only 1 weapon!). It will still serve as fast transport, be able to destroy buildings if equipped with a cannon, be able to kill ALL none antitank infantry when equipped with an mg or cannon, and even have a chance against small groups of grenadiers because of his deathray mg's (if equipped) and speed (driving over them). The weakest vehicle in a game should not be able to do anything more than this imo. It can after all turn around quickly for repairs and come back with reinforcements. - Make the mk2 equal to the current mk1. On the mk2 you would be able to equip anything as long as it fits in the slots. While i think the current mk1 is too strong, i think the mk2 being the same as the current mk1 would not be overpowered as it would have cost time and money to research. And since they would have to be researched anyway, more commanders will research mediums and heavies instead. Hopefully we'd see all types of chassis about as much. - Give the (default/standard) damage of the rpg of grenadiers a decent boost - Give the grenadier more rpg's and a little less mortar shells. I think the grenadier is a bit too good against infantry and too weak against vehicles. Changing the damage of the rpg and balancing the ammo will improve this a lot imo. He'll still be able to kill infantry with both mortar and pistol, he'll just have a bit less shells. And since rpg's can't damage buildings anymore (i think?) there's no problem with giving him some more of those. - Add something to the rpg weapon icon if upgraded rpg is researched For me personally this suggestion would bring empires gameplay to a whole new level of awesomeness. - We'd see less LT's and more Meds and Heavies - There'd be 4 types of chassis that are a lot different from eachother - Grenadiers would be better against vehicles but not be overpowered because the change is all about the rpg which has no effect on buildings and infantry, and he'd still have to team up with others to be able to take down a heavy or force him to retreat. - I'd know if upgraded rpg is researched - Heavies and meds would still be formidable, but at least now they would have to think about what they're doing instead of just driving to the center of a base not caring about turrets and grenadiers.
Whoak, I was following you until this. Heavies were plenty feasible before. You're crazy. If both teams were duking it out evenly throughout the game and had reached mediums, at some point it would be cost efficient to spend the 2k resources (3-4 mediums) to get Heavies and then outgun your opponent. In fact, both teams would try to get Heavies to outgun the other instead of massing mediums. It was a natural evolution of the game stages. I know I saw a lot more Heavies in 2.22 than I'm seeing Mediums in 2.23.
Agree with everything about the gren in silk's post, much moar power in RPGs, they should be able to shred standard with ease, and groups should be the same to other armours. I think the chasis points are a bit short sighted, cause you just epic-nerfed the lights and MKIIs. Not fun. Anyway, MEGA AWESOME IDEA HIT ME GUISE(LT = LT/AFV): So you start with LT-->MED-->HEAVY, simple form of betteringness. then you sort of went LT---->LTMKII->MED-->HEAVY, so the sensible thing to do would be to nerf the LTMKII, just a tid, to bring meds more into effect. Now dizzy plans this: LT--->LTMKII-->MED->MEDMKII->HEAVY, but then you're in serious risk of making heavies useless. so here it is, MEGA SUPER IDEA: LT--->LTMKII-->MED->MEDMKII->HEAVY--->HEAVYMKII OH YEAH, HEAVY MKII!!! Because we now have improved meds, I doubt we'll see many heavies. So, make the research into adv chassis short, perhaps 60 secs, then heavy to 90 secs. Then you'll get both researched, as the MEDMKII with likely be able to put up a pretty good fight against a heavy, but the heavy won't be a considerable research path. Heavy tanks should also be cheapened a little, a tank that costs 1k now should maybe be 850-900. Then make a bitch of a research from heavy tanks, 210 secs + 2.5K res to get HEAVYMKII. add another 100 to 150 or so units of weight, and another 2slot of each weapon(NF getting a 3,2,2 of MLs, 2,2 of MG and 3,2 of CN, BE getting 3,2 of ML, 2,2 of MG, and 3,3,2 of CN) and add cost, so the average between new HEAVY and new HEAVYMKII is similar to the current cost. Thus, because they're such a pain to research and then implement (3 and half minutes + thousands of res), you're unlikely to see many, but they stand as the definitive end game tank. Not only this, but you're getting some serious new options for customization, something that is never to be sneered at, which means moar fun. think UML+UML+BIO ML heavies, RAIL+RAIL+HE heavies, I KNOW YOU WANT IT. Then there are probably some funky things you could do with those 2 MGs, although the MEDMKII might have them as well. DISCUSS PLX.
That's because we start off from two different points of view. I stopped playing empires because i was getting tired of getting owned in a second by superfast LT's (unless there's wall spam, which is not fun either). The first, instant accessible vehicle in the game is the most annoying of them all. That just makes no sense. My suggestion of creating a weaker version is totally logical to me, as there'd actually be a vehicle you get can from the start, that is not uber powerfull (still not weak either!!). Not only do i see no problem what that, but i think it's simply necessary. My suggestion about having the mk2 being the current mk1 does not make lt's weaker. In fact i could still argue that they'd still be overpowered. The only reason i could live with cheap vehicles being insanely effective like the mk2 (or current mk1), would be that this time they would have to be researched which means spending time and money on them, which will make researching med and heavies more attracting as you'll have to research anyway. I don't look at it as nerf. LT's (mk2) will still be equally effective, just researching another type of chassis becomes viable as well. The mk1 will be the cheap instant accessible vehicle still fast and strong enough to cause damage everywhere if the driver is carefull (which currently is not necessary, tanks just drive around the countryside at full speed ramming cv's and killing everything). That's not weak at all imo. On the contrary.
I don't think anyone's quite said this before and it's been annoying me quite a bit. MkII's I liked as concept vehicles but the sad fact is in practice they do not work at all. Previously some commanders would rush heavies in some situations and do fairly well or fail epicly with them. Some commanders would go through mediums first and then move on to heavies - the safe route because mediums can hold off most things and make sure you won't get uberpwned in the mean time, right? Commanders rushing heavies always knew there was a big risk going straight there because for a long time, their team would have to stick with tier 1 vehicles. With the advent of MkII vehicles however, any commander can go to heavies pretty easily, with no fear of being pwned by mediums in the interim. If the enemy team does get mediums, the MkII's can hold them off, if they don't, then you'll both get heavies and fight on equal terms. There's ZERO RISK with going straight to heavies now. And that's why MkII's are bad in practice - they make Mediums unneeded in the interim between lights and heavies. Hardly any team with mediums will run right over you if you have MkII's. On a side note, I always thought the Sidewinder type vehicles would add the spice that the current light/medium/heavy Empires has lacked with vehicular combat. Are MkII's instead of that concept, or as well as?
yes? Hence the 3,2,2 layout as opposed to 3,3,2 layout. What I'm thinking, staying with the 'everything has an MKII', would be to separate LTMKII and put it inside upg. chassis, but keeping it short - 30 seconds is fine. make sure the mediums are also atractively short too, perhaps 90 seconds. then the MEDMKII would also be shortish, maybe 60 or 90 seconds. that way, going MKII meds then stopping off and getting other weapons and armour would be preferable (because devs, there will be other feasable armours other than reactive. mhmk?). If you still need firepower and have the res, go get heavies and MKII heavies. or go straight for MKII heavies, but that is a really, disgustingly long time without anything better, even stopping off at MKII lights. You probably wouldn't want to roll many standard heavies either, because you need all the res for the costly MKII heavies.
AFVS still are the worst "tanks" BE could field. However, Mk2's aren't so much worse than mediums (each chassis has drawbacks and advantages) that spending 2 minutes to research mediums is worth it. I didn't mistake anything brah. The fact is, Mk2's are cheaper than mediums by 100-200 resources - even if they have specific drawbacks. Massed HE fire is just as good on Mk2's as it is on medium tanks, but in the case of Mk2's, you can actually afford more of them. Also, nobody will ever purposely put fewer plates on a tank just because their commander says so, so the fact remains that mediums will always be more expensive than mk2's given equal tech levels. Also, you might want to work on your English. That last sentence wasn't very clear and didn't make a whole lot of sense. Specialized meds beat heavies? LOL. electrical NF heavies rape the shit out of any kind of medium tank you can throw together on BE. HE BE heavies rape the shit out of any kind of medium tank you can throw together on NF. l2p empires. I don't know any comm who seriously has said "we have mediums, they're good enough" when the enemy researches and fields heavy tanks with some sort of upgraded weapons system, even if they don't have "the perfect equipment" for them. heavies are most certainly better than meds. you need to get out of the developers enclave and breathe some fresh air with the players. I read your post and didn't agree with a word of it; mainly because unlike you, i have actually played a bit in the last few months. it's not "a" strategy. You have made it the "best" strategy (arguably the "only" strategy). Mk2's have made rushing heavies more viable, which was already the common strat in 2.22. I never made an appeal to popularity. I made an appeal to common sense. Listen. If you want some factual proof we can jump on a quiet server some time and you can show me how the perfect medium can beat a heavy tank. Until then, my point stands - heavies rape meds. This one is a fun one. I think I've played more of the recent patches than anyone else who is alive. You can look at server statistics if you want proof. http://www.gametracker.com/server_info/75.126.220.122:27115/ Not only that, but I've seen you on, maybe once or twice the whole time? I guess I wouldn't want to play either if I get flamed out of every game I join. Not only that, but I'm not talking about paper mediums - I'm talking about the best medium you can think of to put together. comp/ace/HE/uml whatever. The sky's the fucking limit. Find the best technology you can for your precious medium (whatever you think that may be) and an electrical heavy will still rape face. Once again, if you would like proof, I would be willing to offer you a demonstration. It goes against the idea that there should be more than one research path for empires. The rest of your statement doesn't make much sense, maybe you could clarify in a response. ad hominem, next issue I couldn't pretend to know what your intentions are. If your intentions are fucking everything up, you're succeeding admirably. Moving on you're being facetious. I was obviously referring to this statement: "Mk2's just made heavy rushes more practical than they were because they are on the way to heavies with no extra research time added." reading comprehension ftw. There's a general consensus within the veteran community that the devs aren't paying much attention to what is changed in this game. As far as who a vet is... you know when you see one. An interesting idea. maybe i'll try it next time i comm the only limiting factor here is the 1500 for heavy research. heavies cost only 100-300 more than mediums and are worth much more than that difference. And as far as that goes, 2 medium tanks isn't that big of a deal in the long run. lolwat? heavies have always been feasible. what isn't feasible now is researching mediums. If you would ask anyone who knew anything about anything you would get the same answer. heavies are even a good idea on resource starved maps like crossroads now.
I haven't driven the cv into the water since i started playing empires, though i will say some clever light tanks and engineers have forced me into it sometimes.
I'm not going to reply to every single one of those, but if you want, I will. I actually have replied to most of your concerns in other threads and yes I have played the game in the last month, quite regularly. I didn't actually get personal, most of your replies are personal and don't add anything, I get flamed out of every game? I never got flamed, and why would I play on an american server, I live in europe. Most of your comments are based on reactive armor and the general armor buff, you can keep discussing these but as far as im concerned they don't have anything to do with chassis in general or mkII in general, they're already changed for the next version anyway.
I like the idea of a tank, simmilar to light tank/AFV, but with more space, weapons, health and stuff. The trouble is, thats called a medium tank.
