Mkii in retrospect

Discussion in 'General' started by Coffeeburrito, Apr 4, 2009.

?

Good idea?

Poll closed Apr 18, 2009.
  1. Good idea

    10 vote(s)
    11.5%
  2. Good idea, but needs balancing

    49 vote(s)
    56.3%
  3. Bad idea

    28 vote(s)
    32.2%
  1. Coffeeburrito

    Coffeeburrito Coder

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    Do you like them?
    1. Some say they added a lot of fun
    2. Some say the concept is ok, but still as unbalanced as the original LT/AFV
    3. Some say they are shit
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  2. Fricken Hamster

    Fricken Hamster Mr. Super Serious

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    you guys seriously fucked up balancing.
     
  3. Mageknight

    Mageknight Member

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    Interesting idea, but it needs some work.
     
  4. recon

    recon SM Support Dev

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    That's old news Hamster...

    IMHO there should be a feature freeze while the devs sort out balancing.
     
    Last edited: Apr 4, 2009
  5. Dubee

    Dubee Grapehead

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    I don't think I've seen a single medium since 2.23 came out. I would rather see mkii meds. LT's are used late game even with out better versions of them.
     
  6. BitterJesus

    BitterJesus Member

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    Def needs balance.
     
  7. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    when i'm comm, i like to grief my team by researching mediums
     
  8. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    The mod wasn't really balanced before. But the MKII's were a bit overkill because they multiplied the LT v AFV balance issues. Good concept, but the core balance problem needs to be addressed.
     
  9. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    Whilst I prefer AFVmkiis to LTmkiis, and still get meds on NF for the sake of HE, I do prefer the idea of medmkIIs rather than LT/AFVmkiis
     
  10. communism

    communism poof

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    Yup
    But then heavies would never get researched, I say remove them till we can come up with a better way to implement them
     
  11. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    I think they devalued mediums rather badly.

    The ability to modify the mounts available to a particular chassis is a nice one, but the way mark 2s do it isn't a good way to go about it I don't think.
     
  12. PwnedYoAss

    PwnedYoAss Member

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    Bah, Mk2s were pointless, absolutely pointless, it's like changing the color scheme of both teams!
     
  13. BitterJesus

    BitterJesus Member

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    Yeah I gotta agree with pwned.

    Don't fix what isn't broken.
     
  14. Kolaris

    Kolaris Member

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    Sadly I have to say I think they were a bad idea.

    They were supposed to bridge the gap between early and mid game, but I rarely if ever see Medium Tanks now. They've just sort of moved in in place of Meds.

    If anything I think the stock AFV needed the 2-Cannon Slot to balance out the LT, we didn't need upgrades for both of them.
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    You could probably just remove medium tank research and make upgraded chassis take a bit longer, but automatically give you mediums.
     
  16. dizzyone

    dizzyone I've been drinking, heavily

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    I don't see how it could ever devalue meds, mkii have less armor, cost almost the same (take maybe 25 res) and only have one 2slot weapon opposed to a med having both.

    BE meds are better than BE AFVs, as well that it couldn't possibly matter whether meds are devalued as it's about making specialized tanks, not upgrading until you reach some kind of high point.

    I've said it a couple times now, med mkII's will be added once the low tier MKII's have been worked out.


    I've seen meds and heavies and the "meds are useless" arguement is either based on imbalances that we are trying to fix, or a misconceived concept that mkII's are better than mediums. I'm sure that if you played NF all day that the mkII's would seem better, but this was never any different, I never researched mediums as NF before mkII's were added, simply because the NF med is more of a brick than the AFV is for BE; better manouvrability maybe, but the real punch comes with heavy tanks, not with meds. What you're seeing is deeper faults surfacing, which for my reasons is a good thing since I can now focus on progressing these faults, while for playing the game it's sadly a huge sucker punch to the face, one you'll hopefully forget in the very near future.

    When you research proper med tanks, you will not need heavies, this still applies, the firepower and armor increase you gain from heavies comes at a hefty cost and is weighed on strategy. If you don't research mediums, or don't have the weapons to accommodate a specific purpose, then really, what are we discussing? The fact you don't use it as you are not aware of it, or the fact you're not using it because you believe there is no such thing as a "Specialized tank," rather the build up of technology and getting to end tier?
    Both are different discussions that have nothing to do with MKII's and are very misleading for this discussion.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2009
  17. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    the BE medium tank handles like a buick. AFV mk2's have the advantage of being much more maneuverable. It also allows you to employ tier 2 cannons inexpensively, and in massed fire they actually do quite well. These points might be minor, however, to the main reason why mediums usually fail.

    Heavy tanks are the end game. The team who doesn't get them first is at a disadvantage. spending 2 minutes to research mediums just handicaps your team in that it will be another 2 minutes before your team can get heavies. Quite simply, medium tanks are not strong enough to be game breaking at this point. Heavy tanks are. Not giving separate research for Mk2's just allows teams to get them on the way to heavies, which means there's no reason to not research them if your end goal is heavies in the first place.

    Listen. You might think that medium tanks are cool or whatever but quite frankly if your team gets mediums and the other team rushes heavies (a very popular strat) you are fucked. Play some empires, command a few games, and tell me what you think when you research BE mediums and NF rushes electrical heavies like it does in 90% of the games. Mk2's just made heavy rushes more practical than they were because they are on the way to heavies with no extra research time added. If that's what you're trying to do to the tech tree, then fine. But a lot of us experienced players don't like it. We'd rather see more diversity and more viability to alternative strats, like rushing mediums. But quite frankly it's just not there. That's ultimately why I think mark 2's are a bad idea; they just make the most popular strat (heavy rushes) more popular.
     
  18. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    The main reason for having meds is the firepower they can use.

    Light tanks can have good survivability with light armor, but they can never pack the specialised and destructive firepower of a medium tank.

    Mark twos can, you rarely need to have both a cannon and a missile, and there isn't really anything that one slot can do that the other can't, bioML/HE, UML/ER fill all the roles you really need from a two slot weapon, and all two slot weapons are destructive which is what you really want from meds.

    All meds bring to the table over the current mark twos is slightly more armor and a different model, I know the LT mark two has only two plates of armor but it's maneuverable enough to be survivable, while the medium lacks that so the armor bonus won't be as much help, the BE medium has only one extra armor plate and a better shape, which makes it about the same improvement over a mark two.

    Yes mediums have more armor, yes mediums can mount two weapons in theory, but usually they will only mount one, because you probably won't have two and can't use two and the armor needed to keep a med alive anyway, so the benefit simply isn't as great as you might think if you base this so heavily on the numbers.

    They are slightly better, particularly for BE because the AFV mk2 has no redeeming value other than its ability to carry a two slot cannon, while both LTs can actually perform a role that a medium can't, albeit one which isn't that important once mediums are on the field. But the point is they aren't very much better, yes researching meds will help, but it doesn't feel like a great progression, it's just that mediums are like lights but with only slightly more armor and bigger models.
     
    Last edited: Apr 5, 2009
  19. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    dizzyone. you keep talking about these "deeper faults" surfacing. What happens when you keep stacking shit on top of a building with a shitty foundation?
     
  20. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    People with video cameras come and make a documentary about how you live in a dangerous building made out of human faeces.
     

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