Map overhaul poll

Discussion in 'Mapping' started by Silk, Mar 9, 2014.

?

Which map would you prefer getting an overhaul?

Poll closed Mar 30, 2014.
  1. canyon

    5 vote(s)
    45.5%
  2. duststorm

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
  3. isle

    4 vote(s)
    36.4%
  4. mvalley

    4 vote(s)
    36.4%
  5. slaughtered

    3 vote(s)
    27.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Silk

    Silk Mapper

    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If, after Echelon, I'd feel like enhancing some of the older official maps, which do you guys think need an overhaul most?

    Since there's only a handfull of maps I'd actually want to work on, I turned this into a poll. After I decided I'll make a new topic about that map to discuss community suggestions.

    emp_canyon - because to me this map is a tribute to how bad something can look ... in every aspect. It would be a purely graphical overhaul. The "cold and miserable" atmosphere can stay if you want

    emp_duststorm - not sure, it has to be dry and barren, the current atmosphere and textures work well, but I still think some none gameplay changing details have to be added. Maybe even just details like tumbleweeds rolling by or some cacti here and there. Truth be told, I wouldn't be able to do either of those myself.

    emp_isle - I feel like more could be done here, more variation. It's all so incredibly open. Could be made to look much more tropical and exotic. The higher level is way too flat and bare, and I think some realistic cover from either the hills themselves or something new would improve both its look and gameplay. Would be a challenge, but then again if I fail we just don't use it.

    emp_mvalley - almost purely a graphical overhaul, mainly adding details and some minor spots of cover. Some variation in general.

    emp_slaughtered - well it's currently 1 material with 2 textures on one horizontal surface that got raised to resemble mountains ... with incredibly stretched textures. Insane amount of work to change this but it should look waaay better.
     
  2. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

    Messages:
    4,251
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'd say no on Slaughtered because compared to the other ones, that one was updated relatively recently. I remember Varbles, when remaking Slaughtered, ran into issues with stretched textures and had to make some tradeoffs for the map to work.

    Mvalley had the dam replaced at one point, but hasn't been touched aside from that. I dunno though, I kinda' like how Mvalley is.

    The top of Isle is definitely too flat compared to the bottom, but I feel that it's in a pretty good state as it is.

    Duststorm could use something. While Mvalley is pretty empty, Mvalley feels fine being empty; Duststorm really does seem like there should be more to it.

    And for Canyon, I'm not certain. If it's purely graphical, I'd say go for it.
     
  3. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

    Messages:
    16,576
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I don't know what you're talking about with regard to Canyon. It was miserable and rainy but I had that changed. You did do a revamped version which I thought was ok, but I didn't feel it matched with what my idea of Canyon was, which was a straightforward grassy, sunny map. Current Canyon does that mostly in my opinion.

    I don't think Mvalley, Canyon or Slaughtered really need changing gameplaywise. Visually speaking, while Duststorm could be more interesting. I'm not sure if I want to mess with the gameplay of Duststorm, but I will certainly say that I always felt that FrozenSummit was a far better Duststorm than Duststorm actually was.

    Isle however, I'm not hugely keen on. My main issue with Isle is that, despite appearing as an open map, Isle is actually a chokepoint map, and it's amazing how few people really understand that. There are literally only 2 substantial entrances to the high ground, both in each team's starting base. Hold those 2 for enough time and the game is essentially won. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but if that's going to be the case, I just want that to be made far more clear to the average player so they can get their priorities straight. Nothing else on that map matters except the starting mains. Hold those and it's really just a matter of time until you take the rest of the map.

    I'm really unsure of whether I want a great deal to change with Isle. Adding a another vehicle entrance in the north west would turn Isle into a completely different map. On the other hand, as I said earlier, I'm not hugely keen on the way the gameplay plays out. So I don't really know, maybe it's something worth testing.
     
  4. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

    Messages:
    8,598
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I think I'm the only person that absolutely loves Canyon.
     
  5. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

    Messages:
    9,820
    Likes Received:
    11
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Mvalley could use some sprucing up in areas away from the dam. Ever since the dam was turned into the sexy beauty it now is, the rest of the map became dull. Since the map looks like it's a hostile no-mans land filled with bandits, what would be cool is if you put in some wrecked vehicles that look like they're entrenched into the dirt, and in other parts having like supplies scattered around the ground like if it was an attacked convoy.

    Isle makes my head hurt whenever I play it, especially if I play Isle on a particularly hot day. I don't know if it's the lighting or the colours, but I can't be calm whenever I play that map.

    and I don't care what trickster thinks canyon should look like, I still think rainy miserable foggy canyon was way better than sunny canyon.
     
  6. LordDz_2

    LordDz_2 Strange things happens here

    Messages:
    2,956
    Likes Received:
    93
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Make a map in a cave. Empires need a map with a cave, and lava. Everyone loves lava.

    Then remake emp_sinking into a really good looking map and you will be praised forever.
     
  7. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I thought you redid canyon once already? I don't know, I kinda liked the atmosphere of when it used to rain on it, but as it is now it seems fine to me.

    Didn't duststorm have an actual duststorm effect? Like sand was blowing everywhere and obscured your vision? Because I liked that and it would be neat to have back. Otherwise its really... bland in a sense. I honestly think it just needs that effect back in, you wouldn't notice how bland the map might be because you can only see like a quarter of it. Though I can understand that people might object to changing the gameplay of the map.

    Isle just needs some stuff on the hills I feel. The center seems mostly fine and the outside doesn't really need much. Just that the top part is full of nothing. Trickster is right, its a chokepoint map, but there's still plenty of ways to get up top because of all the ladders. I just don't see many people push as infantry from the ground.

    I wonder, how much would isle change if you made the little bridges destructible?

    Slaughtered is bland from the outset, but once it fills with tanks all those explosion marks give the landscape some variety, so it ends up working.
     
  8. Silk

    Silk Mapper

    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well both statements are true I guess. It's definitly less depressive than the previous version and obviously has more light, but it's still a cold map (and to me cold = misery but that's personal ^^). Let me try to explain why the map gives me this boring, sad winter feeling.

    canyon: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/234836/mapping/2014-03-09_00001.jpg

    1) There's no sun (no shadow from rocks or trees worth mentioning). Yes there's a lot of light, but no direct yellow sunlight, just white ambient light below the clouds. So it's actually not sunny but cloudy, though bright.
    2) The white fog used in this map together with the white clouds and white rocks make this map cold. And that screenshot even shows the part of the skybox with the most blue in it.
    3) The colors from the map are what you generally see in fall and winter: dark green grass, white rocks, white fog and dark brown mud going 5 feet up the cliffs like only fall with all its rain can do. No fresh spring green but dark "hibernating through winter" green.

    This makes the map feel like a cloudy winter day with some short sunny moments, where you're hoping the sun will be able to breach the clouds later that day cause you're so ready to feel warm for once. At best a mildly sunny winter day that reminds you how nice summer can be, that teases you with hope that winter will end soon, while in fact everything outside tells you that it's actually near freezing and that it'll be a few more months before spring will actually arrive. The only thing in the map that doesn't give me this winter feeling is the trees having leafs.

    However as I said it can remain colorless with dark green and white everywhere. Not everything has to look duststorm/bush bright and warm. There's nothing wrong with a cold but sunny map, except canyon overdoes it imo. Just some shadows being cast and a less depressive mist would be awesome already.

    Apart from that many things can be improved texture wise. I'd want to change the cliff texture for example as it's way too repetitive. I'd at least try copying the current rock texture twice, changing up the two new ones (not in color, only shapes), and blending the 3 textures on the cliffs to remove texture repetition and add detail. Plus the cliffs textures are currently very badly aligned.
    As for optimization, my remake had 4 times as many displacements yet better performance just because I made the cliffs a few feet higher, thereby blocking off trees that currently are visible across the entire map.

    So yeah I think I could improve it, and it wouldn't have to be as drastic as I tried last time :)

    Also Isle ... I know for sure that it can be improved, but it would require some brainstorming and discussing to figure out how. I could try making several versions of the same area to see what would look/play best, but I certainly have no plans or ideas at all atm. Echelon comes first anyway.

    Also I'm getting obsessed with tumbleweeds. Does any mapper know of a decent way to implement tumbleweeds? Preferrably physics models that get pushed by players and vehicles but will move by force of wind when no one is arround as well? Any modeller who'd like the make one?

    http://scbcitizen.files.wordpress.com/2010/03/img_0968.jpg
     
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  9. f1r3w4rr10r

    f1r3w4rr10r Modeler

    Messages:
    2,475
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Well tumbleweeds are relatively easy to make. The model would just be some concentric spheres, which you maybe squash around a bit. Then just texture it with a semi transparent texture of twigs and there you go.
     
  10. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Outta curiosity, how hard is it to add simple grass, like in emp_silo? Little things like that really make the map feel more alive. Would be neat to see it in canyon or on the hills of isle.
     
  11. Silk

    Silk Mapper

    Messages:
    3,147
    Likes Received:
    36
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I'll have to play silo to see how it's been done there.
    I'm assuming he used detail_sprites, but perhaps bigger and denser than I do in my maps?

    You wouldn't be able to cover the entire ground in canyon with grass as the engine reaches the detail_sprite limit long before that (unless you have them placed very, very far apart).

    You could have ferns for example as detail props as well, though it all disappears much too quickly. And there are ways to make it visible longer, but somehow that doesn't seem to work for other players, it only worked for myself.
     
  12. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    13,299
    Likes Received:
    168
    Trophy Points:
    0
    detail sprites yes
     
  13. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

    Messages:
    16,576
    Likes Received:
    46
    Trophy Points:
    0
    They are destructable, but I think there's some bug that makes them not take enough damage from some weapons now. I actually totally forgot about that bug, but it's a pretty big issue on maps like Isle and Slaughtered.

    Back when scrims used to happen on Isle, the general strategy that we started was instantly rocket sniping the bridge out to the North West. There's a pretty funny video where the other team (JPL I think) copied us the next round and ended up RPGing someone in the face on our team from across the map. I think it was complete_lamer on Cyberkiller.

    They're detail sprites. Omneh used big ones in Silo and even bigger ones in Insurrection (fuck I miss that map). The problem is, people can set the draw distance on them in console to 0, so that can give a pretty substantial advantage. It would cause a pretty sustantial FPS drain but I really wish that it'd draw up to max visdistance. Even games like Arma suffer from problems like this, where you think you're hiding in grass but the grass isn't even rendering to the other player because he's further away.
     
  14. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,509
    Likes Received:
    111
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Lazybum meant the smaller ones, like the one in the east,

    ....right?
     
  15. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    4,827
    Likes Received:
    190
    Trophy Points:
    0
    I meant all that jazz, the little small grass clumps and the ferns and the odd little shrubs plant things. With the way it works you really need a bit of variety in green stuff. I mean if you could plop a bunch of grass down like in windwaker or oblivion, that would work.

    I had to do a fly by of silo to see what you meant, I still don't understand why I never see that map played, it is really well done it looks like.

    Eh, it would suck that people can just turn them off, but I can't think of what else would add so much character to the maps. Something to think about is that every multiplayer game has that problem. Lowering the details on the battlefield games usually gave an advantage because you could see more clearly instead of looking through all that smoke and debris. For the people who like eye candy they would probably enjoy these little things.

    If you think it may give an advantage to people who turn it off, you could just make it not so high. So if you go prone it still easy to see someone, it would just look like they were laying in a lawn that hasn't been cut in a couple of weeks, instead of a few months.
     
  16. 101010

    101010 Member

    Messages:
    996
    Likes Received:
    2
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Slaughtered needs fixing. Being able to walk up the hills is a major flaw and ruins most rounds now.
     
  17. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

    Messages:
    8,598
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Actually, that's a really good point. It's a crippling exploit.

    I voted mvalley just because its desert is visually stale, but Slaughtered needs a functional overhaul.
     
  18. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

    Messages:
    4,251
    Likes Received:
    10
    Trophy Points:
    0
    If you wanna' fix Slaughtered, just throw some vehicleclip and playerclip brushes in. I can understand not wanting to use them normally, but I'm pretty certain anyone who plays Empires has played games long enough to understand what an invisible wall is and what it means. If they're short enough and you place them right, then they won't detract from normal gameplay.

    In terms of graphics, I think Slaughtered doesn't need an update as much as some other maps do.
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2014
  19. complete_

    complete_ lamer

    Messages:
    6,437
    Likes Received:
    144
    Trophy Points:
    0
    damn i haven't played in so long. are you sure you're not talking about cyclopean?
     
  20. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

    Messages:
    9,509
    Likes Received:
    111
    Trophy Points:
    0
    That too, but it hurts less because you can't circumvent the frontline on cyclo
     

Share This Page