Infantry research y/n

Discussion in 'Game Play' started by Roflcopter Rego, May 3, 2009.

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Should large scale infantry research in any shape or form be added?

  1. Yes

    56 vote(s)
    93.3%
  2. NO

    4 vote(s)
    6.7%
  1. Roflcopter Rego

    Roflcopter Rego Member

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    I personally quite like the idea of infantry research beyond adv. rpg, for a whole bunch of reasons. Generally there is a lot of nitpicking about the best way to implement it, what should be researched ect. But basicly, should infantry be allowed to get better over time through the use of resources, squad points, fairy dust - whatever.

    Go ahead and post ramblings on what you think it should be like, or say why it would be completely fugging stupid.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2009
  2. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    Personally, I would like to see some type of max research infantry = max research vehicles. So instead of getting the uber heavy setup, you could research super infantry upgrades that make a grenadier on par with a heavy tank.
     
  3. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    I have been considering this topic for quite some time. As it stands, we already have alot of positive feedback loops for the power of the group. What we really need is something that is more of a goal seeking structure. Basically what I am saying is that right now, if a team is winning early, it is almost certain that they will continue to keep winning. Stalemates quickly escalate to domination when one team gains an upper-hand. Infantry research could be something that counteracts this. There are two ways this can be done. We could have a pool of points used to upgrade infantry that increase as the game increases, something like 1 point per minute.

    -OR-

    We could have a separate pool of items researchable on the radar. These items would be very cheap, but take significant amounts of time. Basically, they would be there are upgrades to be done when the team did not have any money. The upgrades would be for infantry and cover a wide range of things, like improved sabotage and better rockets.

    -OR-

    You could do the same as the above, only with a separate building that just researches infantry.


    Personally, I believe the best option is the second option, as it gives something for teams to research when they have no money, and will help counteract the advantages the other team is getting for their advanced vehicles. This will note make infantry better than vehicles ever, but it will make them stand a chance against the more advanced vehicles, assuming both sides researched constantly, one infantry, one vehicles. The route that took the vehicles would have a significant advantage if it had enough resources, but their growth and domination would not be as absolute as they otherwise might be.
     
  4. S U N R I S E

    S U N R I S E Member

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    Weapon unlockables!
    Anti Tank Mines
    Grenades
    SMG 2
    Heavy MG's

    Ammo unlockables!
    DU Rounds
    Explosive Tipped Bullets
    HE Mortars

    Hell Yeah!
     
  5. [PRKL] Werihukka

    [PRKL] Werihukka Member

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    Personally I think that there should be infantry research and an infantry research facility-type of building. The research itself should take a lot of time, but be cost-friendly. Researching both, tanks and infantry, at the same time should make both very slow, so if you wouldn't have enough resources for tanks, your infantry research would be faster and still cost friendly.

    Basically the infantry research should be the same for both teams, but there could even be some faction-based research.

    Infantry research definately fits Empires universe, story-wise, too.
     
  6. Mashav

    Mashav Member

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    I had costs and times at one time, but I forgot those.


    Electrical-Advanced Nanite Research-Improved Replication Code
    Doubles engi calculator recharge speed

    Electrical-Advanced Nanite Research-Improved Attack Code
    Doubles Deconstruction Speed

    Physics-Projectile Physics-Improved Infantry Armour
    Increases Rifleman armour by 5%

    Physics-Projectile Physics-Improved Infantry Armour-Advanced Infantry Armour
    Increases Rifleman armour by an additional 10%

    Biology-Biological Stimulants
    Improves Scout's speed by 10% and Stamina Regeneration by 33%

    Biology-Biological Stimulants-Improved Biological Stimulants
    Improves Scout's speed by an additional 15% and Stamina Regeneration by an additional 50%

    Mechanical Engineering-Advanced Machining-Improved Weapon Design
    Improves Reload speeds of Infantry weapons by 15%

    Mechanical Engineering-Advanced Machining-Improved Weapon Design-Advanced Weapon Design

    Improves Reload speeds of Infantry weapons by an additional 25%
     
  7. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    inf research? no, everyone will go for tanks anyways
    buying upgrades for inf depending on squad points- yes
     
  8. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    If we base it off of the current success of the team, this will only hamper gameplay. I know people want to reward teams for doing well, but teams already gain too much from their advantages leading to uninteresting gameplay after a certain point in the match has been reached.

    Also, Werihukka, wouldn't what you described be even more easily achieved by having the infantry research be on the radar aswell? You want it to be on a different building, but I cant see why. It seems you even want there to be a penalty for both going on at the same time.
     
  9. [PRKL] Werihukka

    [PRKL] Werihukka Member

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    I don't know, I just wrote what came to my mind. By separating those 2, it could be made so that the infantry research building costs a lot, but the research itself doesn't... or even make it require "upgrading" in the building, like going to a repair pad with tank and changing your setup. But I'm just throwing these ideas. I general I like everything that could make infantry gain a bigger role against tanks even later in the game.

    Surely, not make them overpowered in anyway.
     
  10. Kalos

    Kalos Member

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    every RTS has upgrades for infantry,

    empires should have upgrades too.
    like....

    -faster run speed
    -more ammo
    -new weapons
    -more health/armor
    -etc.
     
  11. Castrol GTX

    Castrol GTX Member

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    It's not so simple a problem to say that every RTS has infantry upgrades, because empires isnt an RTS.

    At first glance this sounds great. It would
    open a strategy different than tanks that
    promotes teamwork. etc.

    But, like robotek said (I think), it would mainly exacerbate the advantages that skilled players have over others.

    It would also disrupt infantry-infantry fighting.
    For one team to have a general superiority
    over the other would essentially force the other
    into using vehicles. If the research is worth anything
    (and it would have to be or it would never be used, see: upg gren rpg),
    it would be overpowered and nullify any use of enemy infantry.

    You may say then that the research should be like tank research,
    that ramps up from light, medium, and finally to heavy,
    and be treated just as an alternative. The problem then is that
    infantry are multitude and very small. They don't attack in big groups,
    but spread out, hide behind shit, and run around inside your buildings dropping mines etc.
    To have something equivalent to
    1/4th a heavy tank running inside buildings, etc,
    without the same movement/size/predictability penalties as a heavy,
    is simply overpowered. Anything less than 1/4th a heavy,
    at a research level equivalent to a heavy is too weak,
    and won't be researched or stand up in a tank fight.

    Infantry research has to be small-scale.
     
  12. Apogee

    Apogee Member

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    I believe infantry research should be doable, but it should NOT be hard increases like increased health, armour, or damage. That would make the game almost impossible to balance - imagine your frustration when you can never kill a rifleman, or always get one-shotted.

    Instead - research should be complimentary to infantry. New weapons (lock all advanced weapons w/o research - no scout rifle/shotty, no SMG2, no advanced rifles/HMG) and make all that come with some upgrades. Guns in physics probably, and have stickies, mines, and RPG upgrades in explosives.

    In Bio, have stuff like regneration, and maybe ammo replicators - slowly regenerate ammunition in the field.

    In Mech, perhaps speed upgrades - mechanical upgrades for your limbs. Maybe improved melee, too. A hunk of metal in your arm would certainly help.

    In electrical, improved HUDs. Enemy recognition on the HUD, enemies showing up on the map. Perhaps make it scout-specific. Maybe other logistical things.

    So no straight damage increases. No uber-tough infantry, just faster and more capablility.
     
  13. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Or that. Seems fairly obvious to me that the way to balance new infantry upgrades is the same way you balance the existing infantry upgrades known as 'tanks'. You make them cost money each time you get them.
     
  14. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    If you make infantry upgrades cost significant amounts of money then you are just feeding the current system problems and not adding to gameplay except on a superficial level. These upgrades need to be possible regardless of how well the team is doing, acting as a counterflow against a team falling into the abyss and never coming back after the first 5 minutes.
     
  15. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    If you make infantry upgrades free after research you're going to find it very, VERY difficult to balance them against tanks.

    Unstable gameplay in empires is not something you can solve with infantry upgrades, in fact I have no idea how to solve it, every solution I can think of creates more problems.

    But empires is quite fun even with the instability, so I don't see a problem in adding more things to buy. After all, 75 res per upgrade is hardly going to break the bank, it allows teams with no much cash to distribute their limited resources evenly, a team of grens with RPGS capable of killing tanks would be a formidable force for any tank based team, of course the team with grens would be very hard pressed to take back ground because they're still weak, but they could defend more easily than if they'd spent all their money on maybe two tanks. At least until the attackers get arty, but arty is the game ender.

    Assuming you haven't been pushed back to your base, the longer you can defend your refs with these new anti tank weapons the longer you have to fight back against the enemy, the more tanks you destroy the less of a resource advantage your enemy has, so it isn't just adding to the existing problem, it works both ways.
     
  16. Roflcopter Rego

    Roflcopter Rego Member

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    OK, just to order this up:
    1) Scale: Researches should provide small benefits, not OMG MEGAPWNOMATIC RIFLE LOLOLOL
    2) Tank/Infantry: Tank research must not conflict with infantry research heavily, there should not be toss ups between tank and infantry research because tanks will come first.
    3) Scale/type: Small hard increases (5% damage increases, not 15%), these could be stackable with more research but cruicially doing this will take a long time, as well as more interesting things, like bio effects for infantry and the scout=camera research.
    4) Cost: There seems to be a toss up between expensive to start but then cheap or cheap all the way but very long. Either would be fine IMO.


    So from this: Separate tree or 'sticky' research would be best, very small benefits early game going to moderate benefits late game to high benefits very late game (well after heavies). Also chuck in some more diverse research other than +speed, +damage ect. In the long term research should be cheap, although it will probably spike from time to time. It will either be similar to tank research time wise or take longer.



    Also to chris: Empires supports 24vs24 players. assuming you live for 1 minute on average (intense-ish fighting) and 75% of people are greedy, that's a drain of almost 1500 res p/m. that's 3 medium tanks a minute you don't have. to justify this the weapons would need to be REALLY good, in which case refer to apogee's post. instakill != fun.
     
  17. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    No they wouldn't.

    Assume ten people buy an upgraded guided RPG.

    That's ten people with the approximate firepower of a light tank, albeit much less armor in the open and very little speed.

    So, those ten people could probably take a heavy tank before it gets close enough to kill them, and that's 750 res killing about 1000 res let's say.

    Unlike tanks however, two heavy tanks would be able to melt holes in maybe fifteen grenadiers, and three/four heavies would wipe out a whole team in the open.

    I think that's a fair balance, infantry can take on tanks in numbers with fewer resources required but much more manpower and tickets, this ability increases when on defence because they have more cover, and decreases on offence because they have less cover. Infantry get harder to kill the more cover they have because they can be revived and therefore don't need to rebuy their equipment. This is comparable to tanks being repaired except it's easier to do under fire. However, tanks keep all their price as long as they're alive, as an infantry squad loses health (members) its value decreases and can't be brought back unless people don't respawn.

    Tanks are the cost effective attackers and firepower concentrators, infantry are the cost effective defenders and poor-man's alternative to tanks.

    I think that's a good mix of abilities and don't foresee any balance issues with it.

    If you want you can add a slight penalty to carrying lots of equipment, so people don't just buy loads of stuff. Possibly a small speed reduction, say 15%, it'd be offset by the light armor vest but it would mean using up your armor slot. People don't tend to put every gun possible on a tank if they don't need it because it eats into armor space, so as all the weapons would be quite powerful on their own and you can't use two at once, if you added such a penalty I think people would avoid taking two weapons unless they absolutely needed it.

    The system also meets your other criteria because it isn't a choice between tanks or infantry, both occur together. None of them are huge benefits but they do stack as you get more of them unlocked, and the cost is balanced as far as I can see.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2009
  18. Roflcopter Rego

    Roflcopter Rego Member

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    Lul, even with these PoS RPGs 1 medium and 9 grens could take out 1 heavy with ease. The amount of times I've actually seen 10 grens work together in all my time playing can't go into double digits, either. As for implementation, that's what I call sticky research, which is fine. Remember one point was that you will eventually scale up your infantry power, after 2 specific researches you could get one class to the absolute maximum it could get, the enemy may not even have meds yet which means you can absolutely shred them apart, what we want to achieve is some sort of continual balance - one team must actually fall behind on research for you to have an advantage in either tanks or infantry. The only heading I see this under is diverse extras, not as the core of infantry research.


    Speed comparable to weaponry is another suggestion, no derail plox.
     
  19. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    The researches are all tank researches, so you would be researching better tanks, and if you're researching better tanks then so is the enemy.

    By the time you've got weapons and armor for infantry, the enemy has armor and engines for tanks, probably sooner than you have for infantry for that matter, and tanks are still a shitload faster than infantry so they work better. Don't tell me speed is irrelevant because it's an integral part of the difference between tanks and infantry. Infantry are too slow to chase down tanks so they can't force kills like tanks can. If a tank comes under fire from lots of infantry it can retreat and wait for another few tanks, or just pick the infantry off with machineguns.

    So you'll be using tougher, more dangerous infantry, but the enemy will be using much tougher, much more dangerous, much faster tanks, and you won't have an engine or any mechnical research done yet.

    Tanks still have the mega machineguns to kill infantry so if the enemy gets tanks and you don't, they'll still have the major advantage because they are more mobile and can blow up all your outlying refineries.
     
  20. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    also tanks are harder to kill and easier to repair than inf, thats why making inf and normal research work the same way (res +time) would be just another annoyance for the com ,and another thing to spend res on
     

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