Infantry research proposition number 1

So, there is evidently overwhelming support for infantry research, and some really good ideas have come out of that thread. So here I'll try and mash it all up and give oh noes numbers!

Implementation: Like the radar with tank research, infantry research will have a building. This will be an infantry teleporter, costing around 500 resources. With one, there is obviously no function other than research access, but with more you will benefit from the mobility. The building will be small, around the size of a square of walls.

Tree: The tree will be split into:

Biology (focus on benefits from drawn out fights, utilising regeneration and degeneration)
Electrical (Improved displays and intelligence. Infantry act as spotters for everyone (like cameras), health judging)
Mechanical (Focus on speed, stamina and melee)
Chemistry (Focus on explosives and damage)
Physics (Focus on bullets and projectile speed, as well as heat to vehicles)
Genetics [NF], Nanotechnology [BE] (Only purpose is to give access to the ticket burners, described below)


Researches: Researches give flat increases as well as diverse effects. R = Res, S = Seconds:

Biology:
Regenerative bullets {50R, 90S} (Bullets regenerate at a rate of 1 every 5 seconds (regenerates out of magazine))
Regenerative explosives {50R, 90S} (Explosives (nades, RPG, mortar) regenerate at a rate of 1 every 12 seconds)
Cell regeneration {75R, 115S} (Infantry regenerate health, around half the current effect of engy lead aura)
Small Biological Weaponry {150R, 75S} -->
->Biologically spiked bullets {50R, 90S} (bullets have a 2% chance to initiate bio effect against infantry, HMG has 1% chance to initiate bio effect against tanks)
->Biologically spiked explosives {75R, 90S} (explosives have a 10% chance to initiate bio effect against tanks ONLY)

Electrical:
Sensors {30R, 30S} -->
->Sense humans {30R, 30S} (Scouts and riflemen act as engi camera)
->Sense architecture {30R, 30S} (Scouts and engineers show nearby enemy buildings on minimap)
->Sense armour {30R, 30S} (Scouts and grenadiers act as engi radars)
->Biological sensors {30R, 45S} (Engis, Scouts, Rifles can see enemy HP when looking at them)
Improved algorithms {90R, 90S} (Calculators repair, build and heal 15% faster, although they do not give more health per unit of charge)
Miniature Rail Guns {120R, 75S} (RPGs do 5% more damage, 5% faster) -->
->Magnetic superchargers {200R, 90S} (RPGs do 5% more damage)

Mechanical:

Thy implants {30R, 45S} (10% speed increase)
Heart implants {30R, 45S} (10% stamina increase)
Arm Implants {30R, 45S} (5% accuracy, added melee range) -->
->Shoulder Implants {100R, 90S} (5% accuracy, added melee range)
Finger implants {30R, 25S} (+40% melee damage)
Precision manufacture {30R, 45S} (Reload times of all weapons decreased by 10%) -->
->Improved fragmentation structure{50R, 45S} (Nades + Mortars have 15% larger radius)
Mechanical exoskeleton {100R, 90S} (Infantry take 40 damage per second that they are in contact with enemy tanks instead of instant death)

Chemistry:
Miniature warhead compounds {100R, 65S} (RPGs do 7% more damage) -->
->Improved warhead concentration {100R, 75S} (RPGs do 5% more damage) -->
->->Perfect warhead concentration {100R, 120S} (RPGs do 5% more damage)
Small high explosives {100R, 75S} (mortar + HE nades have 15% larger radius, 5% more damage) -->
->Perfect HE concentration {100R, 75S} (mortar + Sticky nades + sticky stuns do 10% more damage)
Absorbent vests {150R, 60S} (10% less damage taken from explosives) -->
->Flagration vests {100R, 30S} (15% less damage taken from HE nades, 5% less from mortars)
Barrel cooling {75R, 45S} (5% less reload time for all weapons except RPG and HMG which gets 10% less reload, HMG gets 5% more accuracy)
Flagration tipped projectiles {100R, 75S} (HMG does half the power of DU/s to tanks (~3 damage), RPGs do 5% more damage)

Physics:
projectile aerodynamics {75R, 90S} (Rifles + HMG do 10% more damage, RPGs 5% faster)
Projectile lift {50R, 60S} (15% more damage falloff range)
Heavy Calibers {50R, 50S} (10% more HMG damage)
Small uranium fusion {450R, 180S} -->
->Uranium RPGs {200R, 75S} (15% more RPG damage)
->Uranium Bullets {150R, 75S} (10% more damage from all bullets)
->Uranium flagration {150R, 75S} (10% more damage from HE nades and mortar)
Heat experimentation {150R, 75S} (HMG does small heat to vehicles) -->
->Heated RPGs {125R, 60S} (50% more heat from RPGs)
->Hot flagration {125R, 60S} (50% more heat from mortar, 50% longer effect from sticky stuns)

Genetics/Nanotechnology (all items togglable after first research):
Combat Genetics/Nanotechnology {0R, 75S} (Riflemen and grenadiers do +12% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects double for R+G, R+G take 2 tickets to spawn) -->
Perfected Combat Genetics/Nanotechnology (Riflemen and grenadiers do 18% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects give extra 150% for R+G, R+G take 4 tickets to spawn)
Support Genetics/Nanotechnology {0R, 75S} (Engineers and scouts do +12% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects double for S+E, S+E take 2 tickets to spawn) -->
Perfected Support Genetics/Nanotechnology (Engineers and scouts do 18% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects give extra 150% for E+S, E+S take 4 tickets to spawn)



This is not perfect. I personally feel there are not enough "special" researches. Suggest more, suggest changes to current items. Feel free to copy and paste the whole tree and change it to the values you would prefer.

 

Theirs absolutley no reason to make infantry weapons more deadlier against enemy soldiers.

 

+1

I'd like the infantry research kept small and universal. Like giving ability to run faster, jump higher, have more stamina or whatever.

 

What he said. There doesn't need2be 50 researches, just a few that are good.
The ability to spawn with a stim pack that (when hit the bounded key), gives increased speed, accuracy, jump height, and stamina boost for X seconds.

 

Just make weapons researchable, really simplifies things. Weapon research should be able to be conducted while vehicle research is being conducted.

Starter Weapons
Northern Faction
SMG1 (Scouts, Engineers, Grenadiers)
NF Assault Rifle (Rifleman)
NF 9mm Pistol (All classes)
NF Scout Rifle (Scout)
NF Smoke Grenades
NF Concussion Grenades
NF Frag Grenades
Brenodi Empire
BE SMG1 (Scouts, Engineers, Grenadiers)
BE Carbine (Rifleman)
BE 9mm Pistol (All classes)
BE Scout Rifle (Scout)
BE Smoke Grenades
BE Concussion Grenades
BE Frag Grenades

Weapons that come available through research:
Northern Faction
NF SMG2 (Scouts, Engineers, Grenadiers)
NF Heavy Rifle (Rifleman)
-> NF Heavy Machinegun (Rifleman)
NF Dual Barrel Pistol (Rifleman, Grenadiers)
Improved Anti-Vehicular weapons.
-> NF Mortal and Rocket Launcher
-> NF Sticky Bombs and Sticky Stuns
-> NF Mines
Brenodi Empire
BE SMG2 (Scouts, Engineers, Grenadiers)
BE Assault Rifle (Rifleman)
-> BE Heavy Machinegun (Rifleman)
BE Machine Pistol (Rifleman, Grenadiers)
Improved Anti-Vehicular weapons.
-> BE Mortal and Rocket Launcher
-> BE Sticky Bombs and Sticky Stuns
-> BE Mines

 

Restricting what is effectively artwork is not beneficial to the mod. Adding more 'artwork' would be an option, but then who is offering to model and animate it? If this was a full time project sponsored by a company then that is what would be done, someone would spend 2 weeks 6 hours a day modeling and animating, but that isn't going to happen.

Having more stamina is obviously beneficial to infantry->infantry combat.

Mayama, as I have responded to you before:
a) This is the addition of a colossal feature, not a bug fix
b) Like tank research (or at least the aim of it) is that some things are sacrificed in place of others.
c) Near all single researches give what is actually small benefits and rely on weapon stacking. RPGs have the most and can be stacked the most for a reason.
d) You are a gren as standard and I get the feeling you want your favourite class to be buffed. Might be a low blow, but you time and time again argue against any nerf in the mortar and argue for buffs of the RPG (again, there may well be genuine reasons for this, or it could be entirely subconscious).

 

what about researches unlock extra perks to pick from the skill menu, or make them enabled for all classes when reseached?

 

I like the concepts, but it needs to be simplified. Having too many options (with little to distinguish them) is almost as bad as having too little options.

Also, I think any upgrades (whether through research, skills, or points) should be highly noticeable. That's why I don't like the +X% upgrades because its hard to tell the difference unless its something like +50% or +100%. These +X% upgrades add complexity without a comparable amount of benefit.

As an example, defusal is a good skill upgrade because its highly noticeable (you don't blow up from mines). Improved Vehicle Damage, on the other hand, would be considered a bad skill upgrade because the +10% to vehicle damage is only noticeable on the margin. Something like repair upgrade would fall in the middle because its a +X% upgrade, but at a level that the effect is noticeable (i.e. you can build a barracks with one clip of calc energy with repair upgrade).

 

It all sucks because it's a whole different research tree, I'm not going to waste money on infantry when I can just get heavy tanks and steamroller the enemy.

 

Thank you for taking the time to not read past a few lines, I will follow your lead and take the time to not answer you in any helpful way.

I can definately understand where you are coming from. The only thing was that I wanted to keep a more consistant scaling. Another thing I did consider was combining items from different trees so that mortars, for instance, were held entirely under chemistry and bullets entirely under physics, and just make 1 or 2 long researches for each, or 1 long chain (so you can divert to another chain if things start changing, without cancelling and getting nothing from the time kept on the first research).

 

I will give a few comparable ones. Here is my favorite first.



Proposal 1
Research is done in a new building, as mentioned above

Research is split into

Mobility(Phys): Improves how well infantry can move
Utility(EE): Improves non-combat operations
Survivability(Bio): Improves survivability
Explosives(Chem): Improves ordinance
Training(Mech): Improves overall quality, unlocks tiered infantry

Optional: Each training category takes 1 ticket for every player on the team to unlock and 60 seconds to research. Each one has two upgrades, each with 2 levels. Speed of research might vary, but right now they are all geared to cost 100 resources per level and take 90 seconds per level.

Mobility:
Speed1: Increases foot speed by 10%
Speed2: Increases foot speed by an additional 10%

Agility1: Increases jump height by 50%
Agility2: Increases sprint speed and stamina consumption by 50%
Agility2(other option: Increases stamina regen by 20%

Utility:
Construction1: Increases calculator max ammo by 10%. Increases e-build by 20%.
Construction2: Increases calculator recharge by 10%. Increases e-build by another 20%

Sustainability1: Increases max-ammo by 50%. Classes can now heal each-other (poorly) using e.
Sustainability2: Increases max-ammo by another 50%. Healing is now improved.

Survivability:
Armor1: Reduces damage from vehicle MGs by 10%.
Armor2: Reduces damage from vehicle MGs by another 10%, and all explosives by 10%.

Regeneration1: Gives all units poor regeneration (like the skill).
Regeneration2: Gives all units decent regeneration(double the skill).

Explosives:
Armor Piercing1: Sticky grenades, RPGs, mines, and sticky-stun do additional 10% damage(and heat).
Armor Piercing2: Above list does 20% more damage to tanks.

High-Yield1: HE Grenades, Concussion, Mortar, and Seismic do 10% more damage. +10% blast radius.
High-Yield1: Above list does an additional 20% more to buildings. +10% additional blast radius.

Training:
Veteran Units: Unlocks Veteran Units (chosen at spawn selection). Veteran Units cost 2 tickets and have 10% better speed, health, stamina, armor, and accuracy.
Elite Units: Unlocks Elite Units. Elite Units cost 3 tickets and have 20% better speed, health, stamina, armor, and accuracy.

Special Operations:
Hijacking: Works as the current hijack feature
Advanced Training: All units gain one additional unlocked skill slot.

 

Infantry research proposition 2+3

2 is for mayama and others that think it should be anti tank only. I hope it shows how incredibly biased it is to the grenadier, and why it would not be a good thing. There is the chance that there is wide support for it, in which case it should be implemented.


Researches: Researches give flat increases as well as diverse effects to aid anti-tank.

Biology:
Regenerative explosives {50R, 90S} (Explosives (nades, RPG, mortar) regenerate at a rate of 1 every 12 seconds)
Cell regeneration {75R, 115S} (Infantry regenerate health, around half the current effect of engy lead aura)
Small Biological Weaponry {150R, 75S} -->
->Biologically spiked bullets {50R, 90S} (bullets have a 2% chance to initiate bio effect against tanks, HMG has 5% chance to initiate bio effect against tanks)
->Biologically spiked explosives {75R, 90S} (explosives have a 10% chance to initiate bio effect against tanks ONLY)

Electrical:
Sensors {30R, 30S} -->
->Sense architecture {30R, 30S} (Scouts and engineers show nearby enemy buildings on minimap)
->Sense armour {30R, 30S} (Scouts and grenadiers act as engi radars)
Improved algorithms {90R, 90S} (Calculators repair tanks 25% faster, although they do not give more health per unit of charge)
Miniature Rail Guns {120R, 75S} (RPGs do 5% more damage, 5% faster) -->
->Magnetic superchargers {200R, 90S} (RPGs do 5% more damage)

Mechanical:

Thy implants {30R, 45S} (10% speed increase to grenadiers)
Heart implants {30R, 45S} (10% stamina increase to grenadiers)
Finger implants {30R, 25S} (Melee damages tanks)
Precision manufacture {30R, 45S} (Reload times of all grenadier weapons decreased by 10%)
->Improved fragmentation structure{50R, 45S} (Nades + Mortars have 15% larger radius)
Mechanical exoskeleton {100R, 90S} (Infantry take 40 damage per second that they are in contact with enemy tanks instead of instant death)

Chemistry:
Miniature warhead compounds {100R, 65S} (RPGs do 7% more damage) -->
->Improved warhead concentration {100R, 75S} (RPGs do 5% more damage) -->
->->Perfect warhead concentration {100R, 120S} (RPGs do 5% more damage)
Small high explosives {100R, 75S} (mortar + HE nades have 15% larger radius, 5% more damage) -->
->Perfect HE concentration {100R, 75S} (mortar + Sticky nades + sticky stuns do 10% more damage)
Absorbent vests {150R, 60S} (10% less damage taken from explosives) -->
->Flagration vests {100R, 30S} (15% less damage taken from HE nades, 5% less from mortars)
Barrel cooling {75R, 45S} (5% less reload time for all weapons except RPG and HMG which gets 10% less reload, HMG gets 5% more accuracy)
Flagration tipped projectiles {100R, 75S} (HMG does half the power of DU/s to tanks (~3 damage), RPGs do 5% more damage)

Physics:
projectile aerodynamics {75R, 90S} (RPGs 15% faster)
Heavy Calibers {50R, 50S} (HMG damages tanks)
Small uranium fusion {450R, 180S} -->
->Uranium RPGs {200R, 75S} (15% more RPG damage)
->Uranium flagration {150R, 75S} (10% more damage from HE nades and mortar)
Heat experimentation {150R, 75S} (HMG does small heat to vehicles) -->
->Heated RPGs {125R, 60S} (50% more heat from RPGs)
->Hot flagration {125R, 60S} (50% more heat from mortar, 50% longer effect from sticky stuns)




Proposition 3 is an attempt to streamline the first one, as well as adding a few things. Resources have not been changed, and can be taken to mean very little. time is the main resource.

Biology (benefits for all classes, regeneration and bio effects):
Regenerative bullets {50R, 90S} (Bullets regenerate at a rate of 1 every 5 seconds (regenerates out of magazine))
Regenerative explosives {50R, 90S} (Explosives (nades, RPG, mortar) regenerate at a rate of 1 every 12 seconds)
Cell regeneration {75R, 120S} (Infantry regenerate health, around the current effect of engy lead aura)
Small Biological Weaponry {150R, 75S} -->
->Biologically spiked bullets {50R, 90S} (bullets have a 2% chance to initiate bio effect against infantry, HMG has 1% chance to initiate bio effect against tanks)
->Biologically spiked explosives {75R, 90S} (explosives have a 10% chance to initiate bio effect against tanks ONLY)

Electrical (engineers and scouts):
Sensors {30R, 150S} (Scouts and riflemen act as engi camera, Scouts and engineers show nearby enemy buildings on minimap, Scouts and grenadiers act as engi radars)-->
->Biological sensors {30R, 45S} (Engis, Scouts, Rifles can see enemy HP when looking at them)
Improved algorithms {90R, 160S} (Calculators repair, build and heal 33% faster, although they do not give more health per unit of charge)
Personal expertise {50R, 180S} (Engineers using the 'turret upgrade' skill place their turrets at level 3)

Mechanical (benefits all classes, focus on mobility):

Thy implants {30R, 160S} (33% speed increase)
Heart implants {30R, 160S} (33% stamina increase)
Finger implants {30R, 60S} (+60% melee damage)
Precision manufacture {30R, 210S} (Reload times of all weapons decreased by 33%) -->
->Improved fragmentation structure {50R, 60S} (Nades + Mortars have 15% larger radius)
Mechanical exoskeleton {100R, 90S} (Infantry take 40 damage per second that they are in contact with enemy tanks instead of instant death)
Mechanical pain inhibitors {150, 120S} (Infantry can press a key once per life that gives them infinate stamina and 25 more health for 10 seconds, after which they lose all their stamina and 25 health (if they have been hit and are now at less than 25 health, they will, tragically, die)

Chemistry (focus on RPG, mortar and nades):

Miniature warhead compounds {100R, 120S} (RPGs do 15% more damage) -->
->Improved warhead concentration {100R, 120S} (RPGs do 15% more damage) -->
->->Perfect warhead concentration {100R, 160S} (RPGs do 15% more damage)
Small high explosives {100R, 160S} (mortar + HE nades have 15% larger radius, 15% more damage) -->
->Perfect HE concentration {100R, 180S} (mortar + Sticky nades + sticky stuns do 20% more damage)
Absorbent vests {150R, 180S} (33% less damage taken from explosives)
Mortar Barrel cooling {75R, 210S} (decreases mortar reload time by 25%)
Flagration tipped projectiles {100R, 75S} (HMG does half the power of DU/s to tanks (~3 damage))

Physics (focus on rifles, HMG and pistol):
projectile aerodynamics {75R, 240S} (Rifles + HMG + pistol 1 do 33% more damage,)
Projectile lift {50R, 90S} (30% more damage falloff range)
Heavy Calibers {50R, 120S} (10% more HMG damage, HMG does half the power of DU/s to tanks(~3 damage))
Small uranium fusion {450R, 300S} (15% more damage from every weapon except melee)
Heat experimentation {150R, 90S} (HMG does small but noticable heat to vehicles) -->
->Heated RPGs {125R, 60S} (50% more heat from RPGs)
->Hot flagration {125R, 60S} (50% more heat from mortar, 50% longer effect from sticky stuns)

Genetics/Nanotechnology (For giving teams a large advantage that can be used to swing stalemates (all items togglable after first research)):
Combat Genetics/Nanotechnology {0R, 75S} (Riflemen and grenadiers do +12% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects double for R+G, R+G take 2 tickets to spawn) -->
Perfected Combat Genetics/Nanotechnology (Riflemen and grenadiers do 18% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects give extra 150% for R+G, R+G take 4 tickets to spawn)
Support Genetics/Nanotechnology {0R, 75S} (Engineers and scouts do +12% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects double for S+E, S+E take 2 tickets to spawn) -->
Perfected Support Genetics/Nanotechnology (Engineers and scouts do 18% damage from all weapons, current infantry research effects give extra 150% for E+S, E+S take 4 tickets to spawn)

 

No. Just make infantry get bonuses from the already present research.
Like, chemistry gives them better explosives.
Bio gives them +10 health.
Physics gives them somewhat better firearms.
Mech gives them power armor with jetpacks and chainsaws.

 

Fail Zen.

We need 1-3 upgrades in each tree. Not 20 in them.

 

What's not to read?

You're making people expend resources and time on something which is not useful, the only reason I would research infantry things is if they were included with existing tank research, or if I was losing and couldn't afford to research anything from the tank tree because I know damn well I'd be wasting my time and money researching anything for infantry if I could spend the money on tanks instead.

 

He's thinking of making it so fully-upgraded infantry = tanks.

>.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

 

Is he going to make them immune to bullets and run at seventy miles per hour shooting double cannons at people?

 

No.
He's going to turn friendly fire on

 

I have tried to average 4 researches per tree. if you average 2 then you only get 10, and a tree with 10 researches doesn't seem very interesting. people would get the same thing not because it's OP, but because that's all there is.


To those of you in support of sticky research, here's a ctrl-c of an older topic post of mine. There are no values, but think 5% not 15%.

Physics:
Projectile physics; Increased RPG speed
Reflective armour; Increased riflemen damage
ER cannon; Increased light arms fall off range
HCALMG; Increased HMG & shotgun damage, HMG damages tanks
Plasma MG; HMG does heat to vehicles
Plasma cannon; Increased heat from explosives, extends sticky stun time
Nuke warhead; Increased RPG damage
Fision engine; Increaded explosive damage

Chemistry:
Absorbant armour; Increased speed
Advanced coolant; Decreased reload
UML; Increased RPG damage
HE shells; increased mortar splash
Nades; Increased explosive & sticky nade damage
Ex. tipped bullets; HMG damages tanks

Mechanical:
Gas turbine; Decreased spawn time
Composite; Increased speed

Electrical:
Reactive; Bullets hitting riflemen have a chance to do less/no damage
Upg turret 2; Engi turrets take less time to upgrade to lvl 2
Upg turret 3; Engi turrets take less time to upgrade to lvl 2 (stacked), less time to upgrade to lvl 3
Homing missiles; Improved RPG power
Guided missiles; Improved RPG speed
3 Phase engine; Increased engi calc speed (NOT repaired units per energy)
Rail gun; Improved RPG damage

Biology:
Regenerative armour; Infantry regenerates health (as ever, stacks with regen upg. + engi lead aura)
Bio-diesel engine; Increases clip size for non-explosive weapons, increased max ammo for RPG + mortar
Biological MG; Bullets have a chance to initiate bio effect (inf only). HMG can damage vehicles
Biological missile; Explosives have a chance to initiate bio effect


I feel the main problem with this would be that it is completely random. By chance someone might get something that doesn't help them with anti-tank at all because they focused on infantry by accident, in which case mayama's point comes in to play. But then we don't want everything to be anti tank bonuses because it will grotesquely over power gren and all you end up with is an extrordinarily complex bug fix.

To which point I will reply to chris, despite him still not reading. First thing, go and read it, or at least 3 of the trees. Do it now.
If you have done this, you will see that these researches cost 50 resources mostly, with the odd one going over 100. This is the cost of around a seventh of the average tank research, or a twelth of a properly equiped tank. How on earth you can say that that is a realistic sacrifice is beyond me, especially coming from a person who argued for something which would give a 1300 resource per minute drain in another thread. The only thing you sacrifice is commander concentration, but this is hardly anything new.


Also, proposition 3 is the best IMO. Thinking about it, it makes a lot more sense.