hi guys (something about plasma/bio)

Discussion in 'Archive' started by pickled_heretic, Dec 9, 2009.

  1. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    Not much going on here. not a new post in weeks. needs moar liveliness.

    But no really, this isn't going to be offtopic I swear!

    I guess I'm going to post here and get everyone's opinion on using bio/plasma as BE. Some people have claimed that it as an exploit. I don't think so, but maybe we could get a dev to weigh in on it?

    For those of you who don't know, if you use bio/plasma cannon on a heavy tank, you can fire both cannons once every three seconds regardless of heat and still move (you can do it with any engine, but only with bio diesel can you also move normally). Any heat over the max is discarded. The amount of heat and damage you dish out makes it impossible for the enemy to win with any other engine than bio diesel as well, and NF doesn't have good weapon choices that work with bio diesel. Keep in mind that plasma does almost exactly the same damage as ranged and HE. Also, the research is not prohibitive... it takes about 90 seconds longer to get these than it takes to get physics heavies.

    I got this idea a few weeks ago while brainstorming new scripts ideas and I have been researching it nonstop to increase its exposure.

    So the question I am posing is whether or not people (developers included) think that this is something which is too powerful and needs to be fixed or if it adds a unique niche and more utility to plasma and should stay.

    If it were a problem, it could be fixed by decreasing the damage/heat per shot, but increasing the firing rate to make it less compatible with the 3 second firing cycle of bio diesel. You could also fundamentally alter the way that bio diesel works (but this would probably nerf bio diesel in general).

    It could be argued that it is not a problem because plasma still has weaknesses (not good against infantry), but this issue barely rectifies it since infantry have a hard time dealing with an apc with a std mg, let alone a heavy tank. Another positive is the fact that this adds usefulness to a rarely-researched item and adds interest and diversity to the tech tree.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    I thought that plasma will be removed in the next version.

    Game play where one side can't move and shoot until death just does not make fun.
     
  3. LordDz

    LordDz Capitan Rainbow Flowers

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    Force both teams to research meds with this.
     
  4. Empty

    Empty Member

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    It sucks ass, I tried it, dunno what pickled is smoking.

    He doesn't understand that anything that shoots more often than 3 seconds will rape you because all weapons cause heat which resets your timer.

    DU APCs can counter heavies if the heavies do this, and the APC survives the first 4 shots.

    Strategy is fail sir. Good day.
     
  5. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    really? 1v1 plx. You don't even have to do it with me. pick someone else you think is crappier than you.
     
  6. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    My opinion is that we should use my solution. Bump up plasma cycle time to 6 seconds, make it by wide margin the most damage per shot, give it 50 heat to target and 60 heat to self.

    Bam, we have a specialized weapon ideal for spike damage while decreasing your opponent's ability to respond while you are weakened. The weapon is useful, but not game-breaking. Alternative you could return it to firing once per second and you would have an equally effective fix.

    The closer the firing time is to 3 seconds, the more powerful the exploit is, assuming all other aspects are balanced.
     
  7. [lodw]keef

    [lodw]keef Hobbit

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    me and shandy had been discussing this recently and all the different ways it might possibly be 'fixed'. We could just change the way the heat bar works, make it to where you cannot fire unless you have a certain amount of heat available(you could flip the heat bar so you have a bar of "cool" that you cant fire unless you have enough 'cool' available, just to make it easier for noobs to understand without changing the aspect of it). This would bring some gameplay changes since you couldnt overheat yourself from firing, which might be good for noobs to not overheat themselves and think biodeisel is the most awesome engine. It could keep the system to if you fired alot then took damage the damage/heat received could overheat the tank, same with sticky stuns etc. But this would solve the ignoring plasma heat problem.

    in another aspect I have actually been thinking about this for a little bit, if we get the old armor/engine research times back into the game(allowing for more research diversity, ie a match lasts 25 min with faster armor engine research you will get more research done in a match) you can use more rock/paper/scissors approach again. I was thinking maybe institute a new type of cannon to the game, well lemme just start a new paragraph for this cannon.

    So I'm thinking this cannon has clips, like 4 rounds can be fired before reload with a fairly significant reload time(8-9 seconds or more?). The rate of fire is fairly quick, maybe a second or so per shot, so you have the 4 round burst fire. Make the DPS with the 8-9 second reload included about the same as standard cannon. However make these like 'spike shells' or some shit and make them work like sticky grenades, so you can fire this shell and it has a point on the end that stabs into the enemy tank. Since it is like a sticky nade you can fire all 4 shots onto the enemy tank before the first one blows(if they weapon cooldown is 1 second and you have 4 shells make it like 6 second delay to explosion). Since the damage is about the same as standard cannon not a big deal but heres the punch, if the cannon shells are IN THE SAME SPOT(you know fairly close) one would detonate the other so you could have all 4 shells blow up at the same time. Then have the damage increase exponentially based on how many there are there, so you basically get your real dps for this cannon by shooting the same spot multiple times. Call it a resonate shell or something.

    Once people, specially for noobs, figure this out it will encourage focus firing tanks since they will get an exponential damage boost(even though it is allready good to focus fire there is no DIRECT benefit that noobs really see). I would also increase the explosion effect exponentially so it is very obvious that it is doing more damage(make empty make particle effects :p ). It will also place new effect of strategy for the weapon use, since you just have this burst fire then rather long reload waits. Also make the cannon use heat rather high, so it will be pretty close to overheat or so after your 4 shots, this will discourage use of alternate weaponry such as missiles or using 2 cannons(BE heavys) and since the reload time is long it should be fine and fairly cooled by the next volley. This will make the tank then also vulnerable to overheating effects like plasma since the enemy tank basically has a 10 second free fire period if he can keep the sticky tank fairly overheated so the sticky tank wont be able to really make full use of all 4 stick shots upon reload(might get 2 shots out or something b4 overheat).

    this would encourage group work with tanks but with the downside that these tank packs would probably rape individual tanks in their path, making vets powerful with them. But I guess its not like you don't already get your ass kicked by multiple tanks when you find them.

    The long reload period also allows the enemy tank to turn themselves to a less damaged side since the sticky tank wants to constantly hit the same side more so then even normal tanks really want to hit the same side, cause his individual shots fail(the time limit till explosion makes the driver really want to shoot them all at once as well, not as much time to take good aim)


    So I think the counter to this cannon would be.... yes plasma because limiting their shots EXPONENTIALLY limits how much damage they can do, not just damage reduction.
     
  8. Empty

    Empty Member

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    I tested out DU APCs vs this.
    I tried as hard as I could to kill them, and I succeeded, so yes, dual plasma bio diesel heavies can kill APCs with any armor.

    Unfortunately, I was left with less than 50% total armor after each fight, and even with both cannons on the same key, I was unable to fire them both simultaneously while overheated and under DU fire.

    Basically, 2 DU APCs > Pickled.
     
  9. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    are you willing to put this to the test?
     
  10. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    didnt he just do that?
     
  11. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    2 apcs > pickled, you mean?

    no, he most definitely did not.
     
  12. Empty

    Empty Member

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    Well 1 APC with DU of varying armors did a fair chunk of damage to me, and we both had 40 ping so that can't be used as an excuse, I fought my best to kill him, and I did over and over again, in a server with lag you're fucked if you try this, and on my listen server it never fired both cannons while overheated, and it hasn't done so on dedicateds I've played on either.
     
  13. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    that's because you're doing it wrong. =(

    you can't press forward while you shoot. you can be moving, but you can't be accelerating. if you have W pressed (or whatever accelerator you have bound) you're only going to shoot one cannon. Let go of W for the split second you shoot and both cannons will fire while maintaining nearly top speeds as though you had never let go of the accelerator.
     
  14. Empty

    Empty Member

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    You're supposed to fucking tell us this shit before you say 'omgit's op'

    How the shit was I supposed to know that?
     
  15. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    I don't know. I've demonstrated it a lot, if you had been present for one of the matches we had where we tried to find counters for it you probably would have picked it up at some point. It was a careless omission of a detail, yes, but it seemed so innate to me (since people have used the bio diesel exploit, if you call it an exploit, for other cannons for some time now) that I didn't really think about it.
     
    Last edited: Dec 12, 2009
  16. communism

    communism poof

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    pickled you make me wet
     
  17. Emp_Recruit

    Emp_Recruit Member

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    wetter than the pacific
     
  18. [R]eX

    [R]eX Member

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    *hijack*

    i am sex incarnate
     
  19. ViroMan

    ViroMan Black Hole (*sniff*) Bully

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    GET DOWN ON THE FLOOR!
    <shoots REX in right ass cheek and mid back with taser, and squeezes trigger!>
    <REX does the im shitting/pissing my pants and squirming in epilepsy on the floor dance>

    Damn hijackers!
     
  20. Varbles

    Varbles Simply Maptastic. Staff Member

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    Actually plasma is negated as soon as the enemy has 1 more tank than you do.

    e.g. your special little plasma heavy vs a heavy and LT
    You can only incapacitate one tank and while you do, you are a sitting duck for the other one. Sure maybe you can tag them with bio but if you are outnumbered it pretty much spells death for you.
     

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