Hey Krenzo:

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by dumpster_fox, Jul 12, 2007.

  1. Gunnery Seargent Hartman

    Gunnery Seargent Hartman Member

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    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Many_bullets.jpg

    Fourth from left is 5.7x28mm (P90), fifth is 5.56x45mm (M4/M16).

    Their ballistics are very similar but the M4/M16 got a bigger propellant charge.
    The P90s bullet is slower AND lighter.

    Most of the P90s accuracy results from its (ammos) low recoil.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2007
  2. arklansman

    arklansman Member

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    What is this, 1969?

    A gun being light would be a good thing, and full-auto is rarely used in assault rifles anyway, because it wastes ammo and is very inaccurate.

    And I dare ask you this, have you ever shot an AK and an M16?
     
  3. picard131

    picard131 Member

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    So I take it you're not too happy about the war
     
  4. Gunnery Seargent Hartman

    Gunnery Seargent Hartman Member

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    Last edited: Jul 24, 2007
  5. picard131

    picard131 Member

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    That same tactic was used in the Phillipines against the same terrorism (1898?) And it worked well. Very, very well. In fact, I think it stopped attacks on the US base there for 20 years or so.

    As 'immoral' or whatever as it is, I can't help but approve of it. A lot of things that'll scare your enemies into submission, even for a little bit, are generally worth it.
     
  6. =PVCS) Cpatton

    =PVCS) Cpatton Member

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    any country at war will have its gung-ho gun enthusiasts. And of course, we Americans are no different. Its no different to say that we have people boasting about our effective military weapons during a war, as it is to say the Germans boast about their effective soccer team and its reputation during the world cup. I really don't see why the hell you even brought it up, like its of any importance and has any bearing that *some* random Americans boast about their weapons. Lets make a stupid statement based on a country about the world cup next,"I've met countless Germans boasting about their Adidas sportwear, how the whole thing is their concept, their idea, their great invention.". But of course, you recognize how stupid it sounds, because when you get right down to it, its a shirt, or shorts, or a ball or a water bottle, or, back on topic, a rifle.


    Simply put, everything is usually only slightly different than its predecessor, guns are certainly no exception, its always about balancing the weight, action, durability, cost, rate of fire, ergonomics, safety, etc. etc. Given all the "working" models out there, you can see that some are only changed slightly to try to turn "working" into "perfectly working".


    Most sub-machine guns, following the notoriety of the Uzi's slam-firing, feature a grip safety to prevent slam-firing. Of course, not all weapons feature it, and of course, if any weapon commences firing in a position where the force from the fire can continue to jolt the trigger, it will continue firing. Every sub machine gun has this problem. I'm sure in the correct situation, you might get a P90 to do that, but thats why you don't mishandle guns :P. I'm sure the FN 2000 would do the same damn thing.



    it really pisses me off when people mix ammo imperfections with gun imperfections. You try taking on full body armor with an AK. It's not nearly as easy as it is with an m4. And all modern rounds enter chaotic spiral.

    I'd take a semi-automatic m4 over a full automatic AK (even a GOOD made one, although they were originally intended dirt cheap cause they weren't hard to make) any day. And same comment to your american comment as my first one. M4 / m16 is lighter, and you gotta love it. If you know how to handle a gun its really quite a treat to have the m16 compared to the AK. Weight, ergonomics, and recoil make the M4 superior, with superior handling. It also is more proficient at taking down armored targets. Reloading, as pointed out earlier, is much easier with an M4. I will say while the m4 is very reliable, one thing about the AK is that it is one absolute beast when it comes to reliability. you can drop it in the mud, water, probably shit all over it and it would still fire. But that doesn't make it a good rifle.
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2007
  7. dumpster_fox

    dumpster_fox Member

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    Who are these people you're talking to whom happen to conform to every negative American stereotype and provide convient ammunition for your arguments in an "I R KNOWINGZ BECUZ OF MY PERSNAL EXPERINCES" form?

    Here's a comparison between the M16 and the AK47. The conclusion reached is that the AK47 is closer to a machine gun, and the M16 closer to a rifle.

    Also, for anybody harping on the reliability angle, as far as I can tell the issue was incompetence in the higher-ups. The M16 was touted as "self-cleaning," so someone decided to ship it with inadequate cleaning supplies. Autumo Wiki:
     
  8. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    Trace the AK back to the Sturmgewehr 44 - a WWII German assault rifle; The main reason the AK is preferred by some is because the Stoner guns have terrible reliability. An M4 or an M16, if not maintained in perfectly good condition, will jam. Be it from debris and dust, or from the fact that the ejection system for Stoner guns does not properly eject the chaffe. For the reason of reliability ALONE, the Stoner guns loose.

    As far as AK/Stoner gun vs body armor...wait, who the fuck cares? The insurgents in Iraq DON'T HAVE BODY ARMOR! Therefore armor piercing is bad, as the bullet goes in and back out. A larger round with less speed (but not less momentum per se) will yield a better take down. Many US soldiers in Iraq follow this reasoning, which is why it is VERY common to see US Soldiers using an M14 (or M21) in place of their shitty stoner gun...and there's an abundance of the matching ammunition. You also see soldiers with M1911s and FN High Powers more than you see the 92FS/M9 in real combat - why? Again, lower caliber doesn't do you any good. Its a side arm, you don't need tons of ammo per clip, and you don't need insane accuracy, you need an effective close range side arm.

    There was something I read about 9mm vs .45ACP from WWI...went something like - The Germans used a 9mm round in their side arms - had great ability to pierce flesh...but it would go in and. So you'd get a German in a trench with an American, German would shoot the American and the American would get indignant, kill the German with a trench shovel and crawl off to a First aid station to get something amputated. Turn the tables though, American shoots the German first with a .45ACP (M1911)....and the German stays down.

    There is a damn good reason the Marines put the limit on the new gun spec they have out (they have stated they are looking for a new standard issue side arm) on the caliber of the round. .45, again (I say, just go back to the 1911 or use the FN HP in .40)
     
  9. Gunnery Seargent Hartman

    Gunnery Seargent Hartman Member

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    Undeniable that lower caliber rounds have less man-stopping power,
    they cause smaller wounds.

    You can always trade armor piercing capability and accuracy for raw firepower, but if it does you good depends on the situation.
    With the modern rounds, you're on the safer side, even if you have to put an additional bullet into a target.
    (I however agree that, when fighting armorless insurgents, larger rounds are basicly better.)

    The larger calibers also overpenetrate. Even more actually.
    It's because military shoots ball, expanding bullets have been banned.
     
  10. DJ Die

    DJ Die Member

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    in fact 7.62mm ammo has better armor penetration because bullet is heavier and most such rifles can easily penetrate weak armor but against modern armor protection you need AP ammo
     
  11. Slithzerikai

    Slithzerikai I for one am glad the NF SMG 3 is gone

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    The massive advantage of a P90 is that it has no recoil at all, and that it can easily be dual wielded unlike assault rifles. After all, unlike most other SMGs the P90 is completely ambidextrous, so in a situation where either the AK, M16 (M4) and the P90 are utilized by a trained individual, the P90 could be dual wielded with minimum loss of accuracy and thus reign supreme in skilled hands. And that's something not common amongst sub-machine guns.
     
  12. arklansman

    arklansman Member

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    1. Every cartridge-based gun has recoil.
    2. Dual wield in the real world is stupid.
     
  13. rampantandroid

    rampantandroid Member

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    Negative on this...

    Larger rounds travel slower - they still have as much or more kinetic energy as a smaller round, but they do not have better piercing ability. A higher velocity round does much better. (Throw a big rock at a wall at 1x speed. Throw a small rock at 2.5x speed. Which will embed itself in the wall (not dent...denting is not armor penetration.)

    This is why the Russian T-95 tank, if it ever gets produced, will be a laughing stock (other than the fact that they'll have only 10 of them...) - it moves to a 150mm shell...but despite this, Reactive armor easily counteracts it. A smaller 120mm depleted uranium or APFSDS will easily do better.
     
  14. Slithzerikai

    Slithzerikai I for one am glad the NF SMG 3 is gone

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    No, the P90 has as little recoil as you could wish for.

    And dual wield may look stupid in real life, but you can shoot more. (Duh!)
     
  15. =PVCS) Cpatton

    =PVCS) Cpatton Member

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    as much as I support the assertion that dual wielding on a P90 is probably more practical than most other machine guns, dual weapons will never be outfitted to soldiers, and in the heat of combat its unlikely you are going to end up with two.
     
  16. Slithzerikai

    Slithzerikai I for one am glad the NF SMG 3 is gone

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    I still want another airsoft P90.
     
  17. KILLX

    KILLX Banned

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    hey, gun fanatics, go get your own thread
     
  18. DJ Die

    DJ Die Member

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    yes but AK47 has muzzle energy higher than M16 yes it will loose it faster because of its higher friction in air but its still bit better sorry i put it in wrong way ;)

    as for T-95 dont understimate it it can fire AT and AA missiles from its main guns as modern russians tanks do
    and have you ever seen what Rheinmetalls 140mm gun could do? using APFSDS round it pierced through whole T80U piercing both frontal and back armor sure its quite pointless now when most tanks can be killed by 120mm but i dont think of old Iraqi T72s as modern tanks they were obsolete 25years ago maybe more and not all enemies will use obsolete tech
    bigger doesnt mean it must have lower muzzle velocity
    and with addition of missiles its range is extended a lot and it has at least some defense against aircraft and choppers

    dual wield is doable with P90 but its not practical maybe for covering fire but nothing more otherwise everyone would be issued with 2 guns today...
     
  19. Slithzerikai

    Slithzerikai I for one am glad the NF SMG 3 is gone

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    Maybe everyone should just start using hollow points and blowing holes in enemies big enough to ride a supply truck through, huh?
     
  20. Gunnery Seargent Hartman

    Gunnery Seargent Hartman Member

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    They should have put the XM28 OICW into production.
    Shooting people with 20mm airburst he frag grenades over 500m sure must be fun. :P

    Dual wielding? Well with modern reflex sights it might be an option but reloading would be a pain in the ass
    and your accuracy would suffer since you can't stabilize the weapon well... Oh and did you know that a loaded P90 weights 3kg?

    Bringing up airsoft makes "it has no recoil at all" pretty funny. ;)
     
    Last edited: Jul 25, 2007

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