Heavy vs Medium Tanks

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Ikalx, Oct 11, 2010.

  1. alucard13mmfmj

    alucard13mmfmj Member

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    hmm yes. increasing research time could work. this would cause commanders to take a gamble. the side that researched mediums better make sure they are damn ready to kill the enemy team within a few minutes. after those few minutes, they are pretty much fuked when the enemy starts rolling out heavies if they still have the resources to. in my opinion it takes way too long to get a good sized force of mediums and coordinating attacks with those mediums. of course, if the enemy starts rolling out light tanks to out number the mediums, the mediums are fuked as well. so overall, mediums are fuked =P.

    NF mediums are fine because they usually have homing. homing will take out a light tank and do good damage to heavy tank armor. BE mediums have a harder time because they dont usually research homing and they get cannons. also... BE commaders... get missiles =(.. whats wrong with rails + homing?

    MY BAD I DIDNT NOTICE HOMING SAVLOS WERE NERFED
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  2. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

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    a heavy tank cost usually double that of a medium tank with the same armor and engine, but if the half the team are mediocre drivers and shit shots than it doesn't counter the heavies.
     
  3. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Mediums used to work on the UML + HECN/ERCN being the best thing in the world. There was none of this "only get ml on nf/only get cn on be". The game's actually not intended that way, and although I don't know Krenzo's mind, i'm reasonably sure he wouldn't be so glad it's taken that rather one-sided turn.

    I know i'm not.
     
  4. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    See my posting (http://forums.empiresmod.com/showpost.php?p=330021&postcount=20):
    Research:
    Medium with absorbant+gas turbine+HEMG+UML --> 690sec, 3950res
    Heavy with absorbant+gas turbine+UML --> 755sec, 4525res

    Tank cost:
    Medium: 605res (14plates)
    Heavy: 850res (24plates)

    The difference at tank cost is much smaller.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  5. Phoenix

    Phoenix Member

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    What if only mediums could have 2-slot mgs?
     
  6. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    Was already suggested and rejected.
    Heavy should be the strongest tanks on the field and therefore they also need a 2 slot mg. For me they are currently only too cheap compared to mediums.
     
  7. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    what does it tell me? you have no fucking clue. do you even play? i give not as much to plain numbers as sip does, but that a heavy is not even close to double the price of a medium was known to me and i barely drive vehicles :rolleyes:

    edit:
    oh i just seen sip answerd already
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  8. o_O

    o_O Member

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    Mediums aren't viable because

    a) about half the maps that get played have a metric fuckton of res at all times. Why research a cheaper tank when only half the team is ever going to buy a vehicle anyway. Medium tanks could cost 0 res and still loose in those situations.

    b) you only gain like, what a minute or two of research time? Mediums are not better enough then LT's to reliably gain enough advantage to win in just 2 minutes.

    c) mediums just don't have enough armor to stand up to dual salvo or rails and they cant equip that kind of firepower themselves. Any cost advantage disappears when a heavy can reliably kill a med and get away.

    Increase heavy research time substantially and mediums become the "standard" research path on the way to eventually getting heavies. Rushing strait to heavies would be risky and have much less benefit.
    -or-
    Give mediums a 3 slot MG (and make a 3 slot MG for bio and HEMG) and a Battle APC --> supermeds research path might become viable.
    -or-
    Make mediums faster/cheaper/more armor or whatever and they become cost effective enough to be a viable alternative IF the map has a finite res flow and IF the comm can force their team into tanks.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  9. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    I haven't read the rest of what was posted, but that's because most people here have a sub-100 IQ.

    It really is as simple as this (I might have seen it posted already):

    Mediums aren't cheap enough.
    Mediums take too long to research.
    Heavies are too quick to research

    It's really that simple. Slowing down Heavies is retarded. Who enjoys driving something really slow? You can call it balance, but it balance makes the game considerably less fun, it's not worth it.

    Even the cost of LTs and AFVs is insane. I've had LTs costing in excess of 500 res. The entire cost system needs to be rebalanced. A top-end comp heavy should cost about 1400. An Artillery tank should cost an absolute maximum of 900 (atm it can get as high as 1200). A medium should cost a max of 600 and AFV/LT/APC a max of 350. If maps needs to have their resources scaled down, then so be it, we do that. Or we increase the costs listed here but KEEP THEM IN PROPORTION. After that, we make Mediums take 30 seconds to research once you have upgraded chassis (And move artillery back to Advanced chassis).

    Overall, this should work. I'll look into trying it for the next version.
     
  10. -=]Kane[=-

    -=]Kane[=- Member

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    My suggestion wasn't aimed to change what you prefer but to balance the different chassis sizes ...
    if you want to count in wages then higher the price for a heavy by 200-350, heavys have to have an advatage,
    so you can still move back repair etc while a med would already been destroyed, but they should be more balanced,
    and higher costs for heavys would be better because nerfing heavys or buffing meds wont work, see MK2s ...



    @trickster, sounds actually fine too...
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2010
  11. gezor

    gezor Member

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    do it. now.
     
  12. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    but thats the whole point, if i can keep a heavy for like say 20minutes but a medium is down after 5, its not worth just half the price but just one forth - and not even that if i consider that ive prolly destroyed a whole lot more with the heavy ...
     
  13. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    Here some suggestions from me. Maybe you want to use some of them:

    Current costs for LT/AFV:
    Chassis 65 res (AFV) or 100 res (LT)
    Std. cannon/ML/MG 95 res
    Therefore I suggest to reduce the costs of the std weapons to 50. Chassis should stay to be more expensive then a jeep.

    For the arty you can easily reduce the chassis cost (670 res). With 450 chassis cost the most expensive arty tank (1xsmall, 12xcomposite, fission) will cost 915 res (before 1135 res).

    Heavy chassis cost can be increased to 600 (BE) / 520 (NF). Was 350 (BE) / 270 (NF).

    In general making thing more expensive is easier then to scale down the resources on all maps (standard + custom).


    Research:
    Keep the research for arty, because rushing for arty tanks is very risky and mostly fails.
    The difference in research time for mediums and heavies should at least be 3 minutes longer. Currently the difference is 1 - 3 minutes, which isn't enough to use mediums effectively. Therefore the research time reduce to 30s for medium tanks isn't enough.
     
  14. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    it would be interesting to just not allow heavies without mediums either by putting them "in the way" of research or have prerequistes ...

    i always felt, and i still do, that empires research in general lacks diversity. its basically one armor, one engine, one weapon, one chassis per map ...
     
  15. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    Well, if/when the research tree gets redone, we'll use the new Prerequesite system.

    SIP, I'm not going to use specific values, but if you want to be helpful, I could do with the following:

    The most expensive (which I assume is composite and fission) tank you can construct of each chassis.

    The cheapest (whilst using all weight and not plain armour, as well as making sure it's reasonably armed. Use your own discretion) tank you can construct of each chassis.

    This will help me work things out.
     
  16. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    While I agree with flasche most of the time, having meds be a prereq to heavies probably wouldn't be something i'd like. Having heavies take a lot longer (and yeah I noticed most researches are MUCH quicker now), so that there's a tradeoff between going for meds and quick response/pushback and going for heavies in the long run - so the team has to holdoff the enemy for a much longer period...is the way to go imo.

    There were quite a few versions where this was pretty apparent and well done, actually.

    Also prereq's intertwining trees might be a good idea if used sparingly and for high-tech researches. Two different researches needed for nukes? Worth exploring imo.
     
  17. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    yes ikalx i dont like the idea much myself - i just figured it might be interesting. my main problem would be that mediums might end the game prematurely before heavies apear, leading to sort of a mk2 situation ...

    adapting prices AND time seems reasonable, as does slowing heavies and a new aim system that allows for different turret rotation.
     
  18. gezor

    gezor Member

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    ok, but pls make some kind of quick fix, like increasing research time for heavies, so that we dont have to wait 6 months until we see meds again on the battlefield.
     
  19. MOOtant

    MOOtant Member

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    We'll do something but basic problem is that medium tanks aren't efficient wrt to resources spent on them. It's even worse. Good heavy with rails costs less than good medium tank.
     
  20. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    I wouldn't ever make mediums a prerequesite for Heavies, but I might make Heavies require more prerequesites than Mediums.
     

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