Heavy tanks

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by DonMegel, Aug 24, 2009.

  1. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Why on earth are they 'not as much fun'?

    You can take all the differences you would have spread between teams and give them to both sides, then both sides can mix and match all the possible content and thus you get more variety, rather than any given player only having access to half the content. People will mix and match simply because they have the things available, even on escort where there's only one type of enemy available people choose a variety of tanks, on vehicletraining people will play around with all sorts of builds, in fact the only reason people use the same tank is because the idiotic research system only unlocks one weapon armor and engine.

    And no, which is more powerful is not the only deciding factor, I only ever play marines in NS because I don't like aliens, although aliens are quite capable of winning.

    Why should we add different turrets? What does it add? Having a bigger gun means you can't carry as much armor already, you don't need to add another layer of poiintless complexity which does exactly the same thing.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  2. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    Alot people dont have any problem with giving up some balance for a
    more interesting game. For me the different factions in empires give the
    game more longevity cause if I switch sides its almost as playing a different
    game build around the same core concept that I like.
     
  3. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Yes but consider, what if you took that variety and put it within both sides?

    Then you don't have to switch, you can use either style whenever you want, and moreover you can mix the two to create a third style.

    I agree that variety is vital but you don't need to sacrifice balance for it, asymmetric sides should only exist when neccesary, like in NS where you couldn't really have aliens and marines fighting aliens and marines, but in empires you certainly can have a wide variety of tanks vs an identical wide variety of tanks with different models and in so doing you get more variety and not sacrifice balance.
     
    Last edited: Aug 26, 2009
  4. -Mayama-

    -Mayama- MANLY MAN BITCH

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    You can fix that by, for example, give both sides like 3 research trees that
    dont overlap. Like 3 base strategies with each having its own set of
    chem, phyisc asf research to ensure that most games have two factions
    that play different. Because fighting an enemy that uses completly different
    tactics is what makes NS so enjoyable imo.
     
  5. Chris0132'

    Chris0132' Developer

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    Fix what? There's nothing in that system to fix, and have you begun to think how difficult it would be to devise three research trees per side?

    As I have said god knows how many times and I am getting very tired of repeating, you will be fighting someone using a different set of tactics... Because people will choose different loadouts and vehicles of their own volition if you make them available...
     
  6. spellman23

    spellman23 Member

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    *groan*


    Asymmetric gameplay, while interesting, can also be a real pain to balance properly. For one thing each side now needs distinct counters for the enemy's choices. However, it does help simplify things since you only need to worry about one set of possible strategies using your style of gameplay. It also helps divide the sides into groups who enjoy a particular set of gameplay (maybe some people just really really like homing missiles) and so they tend to play that side where those choices will come up for them more often.



    That being said, symmetrical (i.e. cloned) sides aren't too shabby either. You will tend to have inherent counters and it makes life much easier during development. One thing to remember is that each side now must be SELF COUNTERING. That is, you need enough variety and horizontal technology instead of progressive technology to provide counters to every strategy your can use. This tends to create a very bloated tech tree (see current one and its horrid UI). In some ways this is harder to balance because if there's a slightly better route to take then game will devolve into both sides choosing that one side and nothing else. So, if Med tanks are always the best choice and their counter is weaker to everything else, most players would gamble on just taking mediums all the time for both sides since you might as well stay even with the opponent then gamble on a weaker strat that slightly counters the strongest strat.



    Both have their merits and problems. If the devs would please tell us their plan for this in the form of a design document, it'd be much appreciated. My impression was that we only have subtle asymmetry between the sides such as vehicle performance and infantry weapons, but that the tech was universal. Not sure why, but if that's what the devs want it's their game.
     
  7. DonMegel

    DonMegel Member

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    This is insane, I'm not talking about as much difference as an Alien and a Marine, I'm talking about a tank having one big gun instead of two smaller ones. It does not need this much discussion. Its very simple.

    Who wants to play two sides of the same coin? If all that is different are the appearance it gets dull. Having variety makes things interesting. But, I am not talking about a huge amount of variety. I am talking about one gun, instead of two. Aren't missile racks different from two cannons? The NF Heavy rifle is a semi auto while the BE heavy rifle is 3 round burst. Those are not the same and yet some how it managed to get them balanced. Could it be that we could balance two sides even if they are not cloned!?

    The changeable turret thing was a way to add more customization. You would have light, medium and heavy chasis that you could put light medium and heavy turrets on. You could also have rocket turrets, anti inf turrets, etc. These turrets would each have different weapon slots, say, 2 rocket slots and a canon on one and 3 mg slots on another. Each turret would have diffrent rotational speeds and armor values.
     
  8. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    the turret idea is interesting, (im done talking about the 1 strong vs 2 smaller weak cannon stuff, if people want 2 different teams per se then so be it :'( )

    the turret idea, what about influencing the speed of the vehicle depending on the weight of the turret + its weapons

    as in, you can make a fast heavy tank by using a heavy chassis and a light tank turret on it
     

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