Gren + Roflman : the same but different.

currently development is geared towards grenadiers becoming the hands down anti-tank infantry, and roflmen becoming the anti-infantry infantry. But, here be a thought, what if the design goal was changed so that both classes aimed to be versatile - roughly balanced in both areas. Especially with scout shotguns, meaning another combat class it's going to be hard, and in my opinion pointless, to try and really balance these classes in each area. This would mean that both combat classes get equal armour, with the scout's armour being stealth. This would mean that as RPGs are buffed, stickies and even sticky stuns are too. With more powerful rifles, the mortar should be balanced equally. Future gren weaponry could include an optional replacement for the mortar (they really don't get enough) to change out to grenade launchers, or something else that goes bang, allowing them to switch between anti-infantry and anti-big-stuff as the riflemen can.

 

I posted a thread a while back about the gren having an optional slot of either the mortar or RPG, but it just turned into a 'wah wah the mortar is fine' thread.

It would be a pretty cool idea if there were different armours for the infantry too, scout armour could give you extra invisibility, flak jackets could protect you from explosions slightly and bullet-proof vests could reduce the damage done by bullets.

 

So basically you want everything to kill people faster?

 

i should read before i post... not after

 

I honestly agree with the sentiment. I generally believe that everything should be able to accomplish everything, just in different ways and situations.

Grenadier could get resistance to vehicle explosive weapons.
Riflemen would get resistance to vehicle machineguns.

Grenadier would get its secondary weapon, the mortar, against infantry.
Riflemen would get its secondary, the sticky grenade, against vehicles.

Rifleman would use guns against infantry.
Grenadiers would use RPGs against vehicles.

It would be almost exactly like it is now. Maybe just with a bit more kick to their sidearms, making them legitimate at their roles. That said, I always felt that the mortar should be a 50 damage high-splash weapon.

 

Yeah cause with mowtars slow reload and quick healing engys that would be a great way to give enemies free points.

 

Considering we already have 2 versatile classes, scout and engineer, I don't see why we need further versatile classes. Specialisation is good too.

 

I agree grens should specialize in tanks and infantry. Not buildings and tanks and infantry. Tanks, Scouts and Engineers kill buildings already. And if you've noticed mines have become more anti inf than anti tank. So change mines to be better against tanks and change diffisual skill.

If you think specialization as is in grens only anti tank then they need the mowtar to do more damage to tanks and get rid of sticky nade's for rifleman

 

I'd say personally engineers should get a toned down sticky and rifleman should stick to anti-personnel grenades, riflemen chew up infantry in close and long range fights, and they chew up tanks in close quarters too.

Our engineers are the versatile class, let them have the sticky, it'd be more useful in their hands anyway because 8 riflemen running around a base is useless for fighting anything other than infantry and stupid tank drivers, and the gren is so shit nobody will pick it to defend a base. They'd rather just swarm tanks with stickies.

 

I just don't see the advantage of having two classes that are nearly identical in their purpose; we don't need two classes that both cover anti-infantry and anti-tank at the same time.

What we need is a class that is really, really, really good at killing tanks, so infantry actually matter in the late game and it isn't just a matter of whoever gets the good tanks first steamrolling. Nothing else is important.

The grenadier is never going to get the absolutely lethal anti-tank capabilities that it needs to do its real job as long as people insist that it also be competitive with riflemen. Not going to happen. We need a class that can absolutely tear into tanks and make them afraid, even in the late game -- a class that can turn a losing game around if used right -- but nobody is ever going to give the gren that kind of power unless they also have a weakness that complements it.

The idea of grens and riflemen existing in this silly lovey-dovey FPS duel world where they face each other off with mortar and rifles is totally unsuitable for Empires. Nobody cares about your rifleman / mortar duels. Maybe it makes a difference in the initial massive rush, but that's something that should be reduced in significance anyway. If riflemen are overpowered the answer is to nerf their weapons a bit, not to try and make grens do everything important.

What matters is how well grenadiers can kill tanks. They need to be a fully-focused, lethal, deadly tank-killing machine, something that chews up heavies and shits out jeeps. That is not something that is really compatible with the idea of them as a general-purpose combatant capable of fighting on equal terms with riflemen.

 

Mowtar rifle duels were what made empires so much fun before you were even playing this game. It's completley ridiculous for you to say it unsuitable for empires.. It worked then and helped form this dedicated fan base that was around before you.

To say that no body cares about your rifleman/mortar duels is complete bull shit. There is A LOT of players who care about it. Just cause they don't want to waste time in this thread doesn't mean they aren't out there.

Like was said so many times. If you have it how it was, where rifleman didn't completley rape grens. It will increase them in numbers and add up RPG's and use team work to take out tanks instead of one guy killing a 1000 res tank.

The fact of the matter is mowtar rifle battles were fun and created a cult fan base for empires and in your envision of what empires should be you are completley taking the fun away from grens..

The fun of having to hide from big tanks and call for back up to help ambush it and kill it.(in your mod a lone wolf gren can take out some expensive tank alone)

The fun of having to predict a riflemans movement then and pop off that lucky shot to his face or completley miss and have to panic and find cover to reload.

 

I played 2.12 my friend, back when mortar vs rifleman was even.

Yes, it was awesome but grens were still shit against tanks despite it all. It was enjoyable using the mortar, but there is absolutely no reason not to let the riflemen have a grenade launcher that functions the same way instead of a rifle. You can keep your mortar fighting, and have grens capable of killing tanks.

And the mortar did not under any circumstances make a cult fan base. The fan base was built by our unique gameplay with commanders and TANKS.

 

Okay thoughts:

-Make defusal for tanks a 50-50 proposition so it isn't "Everyone get defusal and make mines useless!" sort of thing.
-Make the RPG fire slightly faster, travel faster do, more damage (with a percentage base component), and track better
-Make the mortar a set up weapon. You sit down and setup for like 1 second, and then you can start popping off rounds rapidly. None of this bunny hopping shite.

-If infantry research stays, make the mortar 1.5 shot kill infantry. Give the rifleman armor upgrades through research and the mortar upgrades through research as well, to counter each other.
-If no research, make the mortar still 1.5 shot infantry, but rifleman armor boost effects mortar splash more.

 

Make defusal not negate mines. But make it defuse mines faster as infantry, and it needs a fucking GUI.

 

Maybe reduce mine damage a bit. And yeah, I need to know if defusal is working, if I'm on the mine...

 

I mean that you're actually defusing a mine, there's no icon or anything to tell you you're actually removing a damn mine until it's gone.

 

I'm talking 1.7 days. Before gameplay got worse and graphics got better. Rifles raped back then but grens had the ability to use 9 mines to kill big tanks and mowtars that had shorter reloads and longer distance which balanced them pretty well.

And that's complete bull shit to say that the mowtar did not create a cult fan base. It's the only reason I still play this game and another example is JPL we have 60 members all of which are avid mowtar users and understand the fun it can wield plus the many other clanner's and even people not in clans. Right now If I want to kill a tank I get a rifle with stickys and kill people trying to protect it and then sticky the tank as he tries to pass my choke point.

Grens use to be able to do that too except have easier chance at killing tanks and rifleman have an easier chance at killing infantry.. That's how it was and should be. Any other changes and you're basically starting balance from scratch and taking the fun out of imo and many others the gren.

 

Dubee, are you raging against me and my suggestion. Or everyone? Or just empty?

As for the extended range, I skipped most of 2.1x and didn't know about that change. Maybe that should come back?

Also: Remember me now?

 

Dubee, you aren't an entire community on your own, and neither is jpl.

 

I'm not raging, all I have to say is the mowtar is what makes empires fun to lots of people. Use it and a get that lucky 1 hit kill feel that boost of adrenaline I haven't had since you could still ninja commanders. It's not hard to dodge if your one of those who complain about 1 hit kill weapons(and just cause rifles arn't 1 hit they still kill you faster than a mowtar can even be shot) and will bring more people to use the class other than on district or when your down to your last barracks and about to lose.

I'm saying the same shit over and over, I've seen the changes made to the game over the past 3/4 years. And I've seen the drop in fun with the changes. I'm repeating my self over and over in all these threads and I'm tierd of it.. I'm done with these discussions on this shit unless the devs want to my advice. And if they want to listen to people who don't know the fun of playing with a mowtar then go ahead. But this game will no longer be fun IMO.

I didn't even read your suggestion and I don't know you.

No really?! You don't know wtf your talking about. Yeah lets play empires for rifles which are so unique. Yeah lets drive ugly tanks in a BF2 style game with crappy graphics. Yeah lets command a bunch of idiots and get pissed of and turn in HSM. Lets use calcs to stare at a progress bar for 5 mins building shit. Sounds fun...

It seems like you are insinuating that the mowtar is the reason for this cult fallowing. It's not the only reason obviously. But A large amount of the community use to only play this game because of how fun the gren was.