FOSS and Games

Discussion in 'General' started by Tama, Jun 15, 2016.

  1. Tama

    Tama Developer Staff Member Web Developer

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    One of Richard Stallman's tenets is that there is no middleground between libre software, that is owned by the user, and proprietary software, that owns the user. Either the software does what the user wants him to, or it does not. By the way, libre is sometimes confusingly called "free" software. That's a seperate concept from free as in "free beer", which we call gratis to avoid confusion. Then there's open-source, which some would argue is the only way software can be truly free - otherwise, how can you check the software does only what you want it to? Linux is the best example of free, open source software that is both libre and gratis.

    Forking
    Sometimes people suggest that a good reason to not open-source a program is that "someone will copy it and make money off it". That's bullshit - the license under which you open-source your program can forbid that if desired, or require them to share their modifications. But in general, the point is that someone else put effort into making a version they think is better. In the end, developers serve gamers with the end-goal of maximum possible enjoyment. If their version is so much better, let us have it!

    In fact, what happens is that you get new contributors, who create their own features. The main team can choose to accept those features, usually after some code review / fixup / modifications. If the main developers stall then he contributors can pack things up and make their own release (fork), which is great - the software will live to fight another day.

    Compatibility
    Personally, I prefer to use Debian and GitExtensionsMod. Both of those are forks that have taken the original project in a new direction. In fact, GitExtensionsMod is just there to merge all of the wacky zany unstable features proposed to GitExtensions and release anyway - and I love that. But it hurts a game to have forking, because these forks won't be compatible with each other, and will fragment the playerbase.

    Open source sourcemod
    It's possible to open source a sourcemod. But I don't think it's a good idea. The reason for keeping it closed source is tied to the same question; "is the software doing what you want it to do?" because the server might be forked specifically to pass on all the player positions to one player, who happens to own the server. That's arguably software doing exactly what the user of that software - the server owner - wants it to. But it's not so great for the game. It would also be completely undetectable, since it's just a fork of the same version already live, with just that server change.

    On the flip side, we'd be making the game not only easily exploitable, but also easier to extend with better interfaces. World of Tanks has a lot of freely downloadable interfaces that you can plug onto the game. The developers seem to turn a blind eye to this, which is great because it means you can actually get a decent workable artillery interface (the original one they released with was crap).

    Similarly, TheCreeper somehow configured the Nubs server to lockout the CV while the original commander remains within a radius of it. Sourcemods are great for this, there's a lot you can plug in without changing the source code itself.

    The middleground
    I believe there's a lot of gray space between libre and proprietary software, especially for games, because you cannot reasonably expect to satisfy all players' every desire, especially if most of your players want one compatible game. I would argue that Empiresmod is as libre as it can be, and that these forums enable that by allowing everyone to voice their opinions, so that we can continue to adjust Empiresmod to your collective wishes.

    So yes, Empiresmod is proprietary. But we don't do anything unreasonable. We would never send non-game data (we are trying to get some statistics tracking up for balancing researches / weapons); your personal data is your own to keep.

    Open sourcing Empires
    ...is not going to happen any time soon. We're working on it though. It would be really great to open source at least the balancing, then move on to models and maps - which will help mappers to create maps more easily, since they can copy paste from the sources of stock maps. Source code would be last if at all.

    /v/
    The post on 8chan last week spurred some of these thoughts again. I know that it was a mistake to announce myself on that thread - outsiders are clearly not appreciated.

    [​IMG]

    That's why I decided to hold my tongue when someone insulted me by suggesting I didn't know the difference between libre and gratis, and to post on our own forums when I've thought about it some more.

    Note: I don't mean to insult any bundles of sticks that may be perusing these forums, and I have absolutely no qualms with homosexuals either, but /v/ nomenclature demands these endearing phrases.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
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  2. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    are you at least making a good deal of money with our data? its so pathetic, a game played by roughly a hundred people obviously is a perfect datamine ...
    ... im sure this kid is after something really big.

    at the same time his phone is probably overloaded with free apps (maybe even pirated spyware, because thats so cool about android isnt it?) and uses social media regularily.

    btw, is there a linux version of empires? if not, what does he care about the game if he has to use an evil closed source spyware os ...

    ... sigh.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2016
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  3. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    faggot is a premiere word in the empires vocabulary too though
     
  4. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    That thread is dead, I am sad. I was linked to it before though, but I didn't really think they really had they great of a point.
     
  5. TheCreeper

    TheCreeper Member

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    It's possible that's a troll thread and this quite possibly is feeding the trolls. Out of all the games they could of complained about being closed source, why did they pick on Empires? I love free and open source software. I'm married to it, I've got Debian installed everywhere. That thread though is stupid.

    They have to use a Windows client to play the game so what do they care? They are using an OS that is "anti-freedom" and proprietary by nature. I wonder how many of those hypocrites are running Windows 10.

    Releasing the source code to appease a few people would only serve to make it easier for those who wish to cheat/exploit. Cheaters are bad for business yo.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  6. Señor_Awesome

    Señor_Awesome Member

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    I don't know why you bothered even responding at all. They're image board users, they're not worth the bits that store the garbage they post.
     
  7. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    Im not even sure why a reply to a chan thread is posted here in the first place.
     
  8. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Some of them bother to read this and unlike most of the threads there posts don't get lost to the sands of time here?

    After all it's come up a couple of times here on this forum, with a bunch of people wanting empires to go open source.
     
  9. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    And just as many times it was stated what the issue with that was.
     
  10. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    The main problem is you would split the already tiny playerbase into Empires and Empires_100x_DMG where SMGs literally shoot nukes. Crazy fun for 5 minutes but a server like that would kill the game.
     
  11. TheCreeper

    TheCreeper Member

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    Pretty sure you don't need the code to do that.
     
  12. Devourawr

    Devourawr Member

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    It was a poor example, the do-it-urself wall hacks one was better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2016
  13. Metruption

    Metruption Member

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  14. Misfire

    Misfire Always Lost

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    Maybe I need to read the original post first, but I'll leap before I look this time.
    I'm curious why there's any concern about an 8chan post?
    Open source is great ... (posting from mint linux), but open source with out proper guidance/legal support is bound to end poorly.
    I'm highly suspicious to find out such a group is interested in Empires anyway. They could easily go roll their own game.
     
  15. blizzerd

    blizzerd Member

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    To me it seems the solution is to make the research entirely map based, this way if people dont like X balance they will not want to play the map... simple as that.
    there are issues though, like how do you communicate the new research to the commander each time. but Age of empires has the same problems with the expansions and it still works
     

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