Empires on UE4: UE4 is FREE edition

Discussion in 'Off Topic' started by Kylegar, Mar 3, 2015.

  1. Trainzack

    Trainzack Member

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    I think the combat (including tank combat) should be modeled after receiver.

    Of course, all the tanks will be manual transmissions.
     
  2. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i think its gonna be more like a mixture of tribes with battlefield. also i think your campaign game mode thing will only work with really short round length of 5-10min. it would be interesting what the average play time (actual play time excluding spec) of empires players is per session - sadly empires is at a point where it barely is representative anymore.

    my guess would be 1-1.5h as a mean. so 2-3 maps.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  3. f1r3w4rr10r

    f1r3w4rr10r Modeler

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    My bf and me had some ideas similar to that campaign idea, but it basically only involved research done on the map in one round solely by the commander, while each player still had their own progression with something similar to a research tree. That might work, but I wouldn't recommend doing this over multiple rounds.

    Also a video and channel worth checking out:
    [youtube]SQhxtfKH1f8[/youtube]
     
  4. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i love extra credits, but i strongly disagree with calling something that just happens because of some mechanic teamwork. teamwork requires fixed, agreed on roles with rather distinct areas of responsibility, PLUS the will to teamwork, the will to abide to a common plan. youll need a teamleader and youll need to undergo the teambuilding phases or youll have a group of people (inefficiently) cooperating by some enforced ruleset, but not teamwork. thus why clans stacking in any game will always win against equally or even a bit higher skilled unorganized players who abide to the same rules sold as teamwork.
    there is no teamwork without coordination and you cannot enforce this by any written rule either - i will never mindlessly listen to what paradox or FN tell me as comm. i dont like their copycat playstyles - even though its highly efficient, its also boring to reexecute rush after rush, just because it has a slightly higher chance to win the game this way - been there, done that. i will work towards the teams victory the best i can on myself, but chances under such lead ill be a "good teammember" are quite low. maybe its just me being a bad teamworker, but IRL i have the feeling of usually being very welcome in teams and i enjoy working in groups.

    and another different example: you wouldnt call traffic teamwork either, just because there are road traffic regulations enforcing a certain amount of "cooperation".

    i also disagree that symmetrical balance has a direct influence on the level of teamwork you experience in a game, all it does is to create the (wrong) impression of teamwork more easily since there are certain mechanics that rely on cooperation, yet we are still miles from anything which could be considerd actual teamwork.
    examples? i cant even tell how many rounds of battlefield i couldnt find a single bullet to restock ammo, while on the other hand i had teamplay experiences much stronger then i ever experienced in empires (and i was at scrims and pugs) in q3ctf (which is highly symmetrical according to the video) or urban terror (which is an extremely weak asymmetrical fps). i think, except for classes, which i see more as a representation of realworld then an teamwork enforcing mechanism, you should try to minimize your mechanics reliance on teamwork to the minimum required for the game you build and the story you want to tell. will this kill off teamwork? no it wont, teamwork happens because players want to teamwork. ive seen teamwork in q3 tdm, which - by the rules - is actually nothing more then free for all with only half the players as valid targets. the only rule which is neccessary for teamwork is the existence of teams, the possibility of teamwork - ofc you wont see it happen in FFA - but thats about it.

    its just wishful thinking, since teamwork only happens when players are able and willing to play together - the enviroment is secondary - if you build your game in a way that teamwork is an absolute requirement, the games outcome will always be highly dependent on what players end up on which team (see empires, stackedistack). there is absolutely no guarantee that you enforce a certain mechanic and the outcome will be teamwork, this is a misbelief.

    i also do think that an asymmetrical game, as awesome as the idea might be, is the worst position you could put yourself in - balancing this will be a mess and needs constant tweaking. just look at blizzard, they balance patch their games for years, none of them are considerd in a perfect balance, each iteration has something considered op. our resources are no match for theirs, who will be willing to constantly tweak values by small amounts each month? ive yet to see a single scripter who did that. all where like, "i know my shit, i can make it perfect" and they made huge changes. but finding good values for everything considering all possible combinations is actually very, very unlikely in such enviroment.

    if brenodi wouldnt come with dualcns while nf has dualmls, we wouldnt have a lot of discussions about balance. if it was symmetrical wed probably have reached a point where it could be considered balanced quite some time ago.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  5. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    I always like how (at least in previous versions) you could make a difference on your own as well as playing with teamwork in mind. Empires had structures that more or less forced teamwork, but there's still a big difference between playing normally and playing with teamwork.

    I've had a lot of truly amazing games in Empires though, and they've all occurred when people decided to pull together, communicate and help each other. Most of the time I found that as comm the best plan was to facilitate that communication and keep people informed about what was going on across the battlefield, and that alone caused more of the team to work together.

    I think that with balance, having it apply to vehicle weapons isn't the right way to go. It never has been, and imo it's just a way that people supplement the lack of vehicle diversity. A better way to do it is to have different vehicle options - at lesser strengths, and then at the highest tiers have the most similar vehicles. That way early game and mid game you have different options for playstyles, but when it gets to late game and the big guns come up it's a straight fist fight.

    Then I'm not worried at all ^^

    I wish I could be a bit more useful, but the only thing I really did for Cold Trap was story stuff, game ideas and the management with flasche. I always was too lazy to learn modelling, which is definitely what you're going to need.
     
  6. Grantrithor

    Grantrithor Member

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    Have you ever played red orchestra 2? It executes the campaign idea well, players can drop in and out at will. The meta-resource system is kind of balls but the whole playing to take over territories part works well.
     
  7. McGyver

    McGyver Experimental Pedagogue

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    Agreed, I don't think assymetrical teams are worth the considerable additional design effort.
     
  8. f1r3w4rr10r

    f1r3w4rr10r Modeler

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    I played through it and didn't really notice anything that was any different from single maps apart from them being in some location on an overall map. There is no research that could turn around the whole game.
     
  9. Kylegar

    Kylegar Specstax Rule

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    I don't want to dive too deep into asymmetrical gameplay. I'll leave that to Natural Selection. I do want some assymetry (like the NF Rifle being singleshot only and the BEAR having a 3 round burst), but outside of small weapon differences, I don't want to dive too deeply.

    There is some space for vehicle asymmetry, but I'm not touching those yet. I think I want to expand on the Jekota = Rockets, Brenodi = Cannons thing that the mod kinda touched on.
     
  10. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Rocket arty versus Mammoth tank
     
  11. Kylegar

    Kylegar Specstax Rule

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    I'll fill these out in the google form you sent me firewarrior, but I want to post them here to generate feedback on some ideas.

    Weapons

    Pistol 1 - Standard Pistol.

    This pistol is an awesome design for brenodi. The NF pistol 1 would probably be a bit more naturally designed with a wood grip and exposed elements.

    Pistol 2

    BE - Machine pistol. It should probably a bit more bulkier than the BE Pistol 1 and look like it's able to support fully auto fire

    NF - Shotgun pistol. It should have double barrels and hold shotgun shells. It should reload like a double barrel shotgun (push the barrels down, slide the shells in, snap the barrel back up).

    Carbines

    Intended to replace SMG2, the Carbine is a small rifle that can fire single shot and automatic for both factions. See the art references in the previous page for ideas on what each faction's should look like.

    Rifles

    BE: The BE Assault Rifle is the bread and butter of the Empire's millitary. Take a look at Srcpire's BEAR for style... it should look modern, sleek, and militaristic. It can fire Single Shot, 3round burst, and Full Auto

    NF: The NF Rifle is more of a hunting rifle meets military rifle. It's single shot only and has a wood base. I actually linked a bunch of rifles that I want it to kinda look like in the previous page.


    Heavy Rifle

    Both Heavy Rifles are bulked up ARs. The NF Heavy Rifle looks more like an AK (but not an AK), the BEHR is a bulked up BEAR. Both have singleshot and full auto

    LMG

    The BE and NF LMG both serve the same function. They can only really be used when prone, and should have a bipod. I think the NF one should be fed by a magazine (like the RPK with a drum mag), and the BE one should be Box fed (like a SAW)

    SMG

    Both teams have a 30-50 round SMG that is fully automatic. It should be small and compressed. The BE one should be similar to a p90, the NF one similar to the SMG linked on the previous page.

    Scout Rifle

    BE - It's a Designated Markman Rifle. Probably a modified BE AR with a 4x scope.

    NF - I'd like to see this as a redone NF Scout Rifle from the srcpries mod. I really like the side-scope that it had, as well as it's form. I just really like this gun.

    Rockets

    BE: I'm torn here. I like the AT4 tube, but on the other hand I like the srcpires face plate.

    NF: This should be like a synthesis between the PRG 7 and the PRG22. I like the cone in the back of the RPG7 but I like the form factor of the RPG22.

    AA Rockets

    These aren't as important as I'm not tackling Aircraft until most of the game is done.

    Mortars

    BE: If we do the Srcpires style BE rocket, then this should be the same model as it, just in mortar config.

    NF: Probably a man portable Mortar tube.
     
  12. Krenzo

    Krenzo Administrator

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    It should be the other way around. Missile tech is more advanced than dumb cannons.
     
  13. Kylegar

    Kylegar Specstax Rule

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    Also, there should be some weapon attachments modeled for each team (they should snap on to each rifle). Things like a Laser Sight, A forward grip, as well as some alternate scopes.
     
  14. Kylegar

    Kylegar Specstax Rule

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    I dunno. The Russians in the cold war had us pretty soundly beat in rocket tech.
     
  15. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Your description of nf shotty pistol sounds like what we currently have. If it does get a redesign I think it should keep the vertically stacked barrels.

    You actually like the face plate of the be rpg? I thought everyone who grened thought it was incredibly annoying because it blocks most of your screen. Though most seemed to have gotten use to it, still it's something to consider.

    The only request I got is for be to keep that ammo counter on the rifles, I always thought that was a really neat thing it had. It could be have a little icons on the bottom saying what fire mode it's in too.
     
  16. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    The standard nf gun is single shot but be get a choice of single, burst AND auto all in one?
    There is no way in hell you can make this balanced.
    Also note that making the primary gun be a spammy one (you need to click every time after all) will not get the gun much popularity what with peoples fingers being sore as hell.
    Blast shield is a giant pain in the ass.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  17. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    yes thanks, i wanted to point out the same. it the single most obvious flaw in all this.
     
  18. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Well it's like that right now. Or was, the bear is currently single shot right now.

    I have to say I do like stronger single shot weapons, Loved them bolt actions over smgs and assault rifles in red orchestra and day of defeat. Though in those games you could kill people in one shot so it was better to have usually if you were good enough.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015
  19. Z100000M

    Z100000M Vithered Weteran

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    If bears been changed (yet again!) now i wouldnt know, but really, people use Nfar and Behr most of the time anyway

    As in just model eye candy or actual useful stuff? Do note however that the reference game, BF handles attachments horribly.
     
  20. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    how is it horrible? i like it and all have their very own flavor. with the sole exception that silencer is op/a requirement on non-hardcore servers. but spotting is shite anyway, way too precise and long, so why bother with normal. bloody wallhax ltp (though actually its more like minimap hacks)
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2015

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