Empires 2.7.0 released

Discussion in 'News' started by Tama, Feb 17, 2016.

  1. DocRabbit

    DocRabbit Member

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    But isn't that the whole point of having different armors, otherwise, just always get the one with the best health and some modifier actually being used in it, aka(reflective).
     
  2. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    rock-paper-scissor requires you to be able to freely pick either option. the problem with empires is that, players/2 - 2 do not have this free pick, they have to cope with what comm researches.

    spreadsheet-pires is what hurts this game most, it neglects that for a vast majority the game is no game of choices by crunching numbers, but an FPS game where you expect reflexes and aiming to be the deciding factor.

    out of an ordinary players perspective such thing as rock paper scissors does not exist up to the very late game when you can afford to reseach multiple items of everything. until this, its "use what you get and shut up" (and for some, bitch at the comm till you get what you need)

    also rock-paper-scissor is a random game. while theres psychological tricks for subsequent rounds, there is no intrinsic advantage of either pick. in terms of empires this means you put the fate of all but 2 players to the flip of a coin not even thrown by themselfs.

    well at least thats something turning me down with empires. if comm researchs certain items, why keep trying if you inevitably lose as soon as heavies show up as the effect of a bad pick only worsens as the game progesses*. either because you dont have a sufficient item or because you lack progress because you needed to switch research. not so bad, if only it would be every single players individual fault (like RTS games), but in empires its only up to comm (this also puts a burdon on those players a lot dont want to bear, its part of why comm is so unpopular)

    but that doesnt mean you cant have rock-paper-scissor counters. but only where its available to everyone at all times. rifle -> gren -> tank would come to mind. except for that gren is skewed because "hurrdurr im useless against tanks because tanks cost money and money is something given by god and no only just a simple value somewhere in a script" so the anti-tank class' main role also is anti infantry, awesome design decission (carried by a vast majority in the community)

    as tl;dr id condense it to:
    the problem with rock-paper-scissor for research isnt so much that you can have a bad pick, which ontop ultimatively is totally random, but that a majority cannot even pick in the first place.

    *neglecting any player skill difference, stacks and whatnot, that are no game mechanics, just bullshittery.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  3. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    That is only true for Empires, because scouting is worthless, because there aren't enough options available to the commander to have counters.

    Take the example of Age of Empires 2, which has a lot of rock-paper-scissors stuff, expert players don't chose randomly what to use, they rely heavily on scouting their opponent's base to see what building they're using. Of course there's always some mind games, but that's only a small part of it.
    But that is only possible because first and foremost there are multiple options, you can choose to wall yourself and go full "fast castle" (develop your economy), you can go for stable, barracks, archery range all opening very different possibilities.

    In Empires, you can't develop your economy, which is the biggest gameplay killer if you ask me. There is no visible tell of what the enemy is researching, which makes scouting worthless, and finally the research are all very similar, so even if you were to make armors have different vulnerabilities and strength, it wouldn't really be rock-paper-scissors. Because as said by Flasche, what's the point? ultimately it relies on players' skills, so let's just give them the same stuff and let them fight it out.
    not to mention that you can only research 1 thing at a time, so on average you have 2 minutes between each "strategical" decision.

    TL;DR: until the RTS side is significantly improved there are no good choices for balance. And honestly that would require re-thinking the entire game.
     
  4. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    What flasche and mr x said. I will tack on 2 things though. The resist system still has merit, and you don't need to go full rock paper scissors with it either to see some decent effects. The resist system can be used to reinforce an idea. Take abs for example, you'd think that if it's suppose to absorb fast moving projectiles it would do something about anti tank mgs like hemg. It doesn't, but you can use the resist system to help it do it's job more properly. It can also be used to make weapons more specific or fun to use for tank combat, but not one shot infantry. Like how nukes do a tad less then half damage to infantry so it doesn't wipe out an entire base, that was less then fun to fight against. It still can kill, but not at a such a huge range.

    The other thing is that all the modifiers that aren't resists are actually being used, abs does reduce damage from fast moving projectiles and cools you down, regen regens, and reflect does reflect as you know. Like I said the only one not being used is the damage modifier because really that's just an hp increase in a form that most players can't actually see which is bad.

    I think a small part of every armor seeming the same was when all the costs, weight, and hp amounts were made rather similar. There's no variance to it really. It sounded like a decent idea, it uncomplicated the creating a tank aspect because you don't have to shuffle plates around all the time and costs being changed was because a lot of people felt balance by cost doesn't really work. I think this is working, but it also gives a stronger impression of everything being the same.
     
  5. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    scouting only mittigates the impact a lot since you waste less time and resources. if both players would play purely "counteractive" the game would not progress at all.
    ofc, especially in modern RTS, there always are additional enviroment consideration, faction differences, and certain more or less minor imbalances stemming from sheer complexity, all reducing the randomness to more predictable, strategic level or this genre would have died out even earlier. (also you gotta be able to click fast and precise enough, something often undervalued, theres barely anything as stressful as RTS games)

    anyway, it doesnt make your point less important, maybe the opposite since it also holds a possible solution. intelligence has the potential to mittigate the impact to a bearable level.

    im still worried that a more distinct rock-paper-scissor system stays an issue of two players. for the rest it would only mean even more useful or useless research, not more choice.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2016
  6. DocRabbit

    DocRabbit Member

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    So why not just go ahead and give nf heavy two cannons and be two missle launchers and even everything up then.
     
  7. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    i think thats the first question i asked on this forum :D
     
  8. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I like the asymmetry though...
     
  9. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    everytime theres a months-long gap in releases, theres a bunch of bugs. so thats pretty much a given. the most important thing is to release something, so thanks alot tama+others

    e: omg the update is soooo big
     
    Last edited: Feb 21, 2016
  10. Tama

    Tama Developer Staff Member Web Developer

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    Oh, I really didn't want people to think this was my release, but there's been an issue for a long while that the community doesn't know who the team is. Thankfully, Beerdude has just fixed the website so the "Meet the team" post is now online; just have to fix a few things about that now, and add a releasenotes post so that you can see them in-game.

    The reason for the bugs after a long gap in releases is (in any case this time) because a new team is figuring out and/or constructing a new build system. There were inevitably going to be bugs we didn't have the resources to find ourselves, but we're working hard now to get rid of them.
     
  11. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Bug #5: Commander Crash
    Priority: High
    Description: Commander crashes if he selects a building in the first X seconds of the game. cannot reproduce on a local server.
    Screenshot: N/A
     
  12. ViroMan

    ViroMan Black Hole (*sniff*) Bully

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    Dynamically adjusting research values means less rock paper scissors and less spreadsheet-pires crap. Shit that gets used more often gets stats lowered or time increased or something while stuff that is hardly used is made more appealing. Empires is no longer is boring. Shit always changes.
     
  13. Smithy

    Smithy Developer Staff Member Administrator

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    Hopefully once we have minidump's working again we can start fixing these kinds of issues, as it stands I'm unable to reproduce this to attempt a fix.
     
  14. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Even on NUBS? because everyone is having it.
     
  15. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    did you try fake-lag to reproduce on a local server?

    cvar should be net_fakelag, but no clue if it works for all empires features?
     
    Last edited: Feb 22, 2016
  16. DocRabbit

    DocRabbit Member

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    Com bug possible aide, this only happens when the commander spawns in the com vehicle via vote-in.
     
  17. DocRabbit

    DocRabbit Member

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    This is reproduceable every time on a local dedi server if that helps you find it.
     
  18. DocRabbit

    DocRabbit Member

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    Steps to reproduce this:
    1. Run a dedicated server locally, may have to open a port to see it on server lists, or connect on your local lan.
    2. opt yourself in and vote for yourself so you spawn in the com vehicle.
    3. Drop ref or any building.
    4. Client will immediately crash.
     
  19. Smithy

    Smithy Developer Staff Member Administrator

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    Can't debug on a VAC enabled server.
    Thanks Doc, I'll take a look.
     
  20. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    Yeah, making a dedicated server or joining EPIC would have worked.
     

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