Empires 2.52.8 Released

Discussion in 'News' started by ImSpartacus, Dec 25, 2014.

  1. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Okay I guess I skipped too much points.
    The definition of max damage, falloff and spread are baby knowledge to me, and I did consider them.

    My only point was just 960->320, ignoring everything else, it really looked like you didn't do math at all.

    But since you already planned on doing exactly what I suggested, there's nothing to argue. PEACE.
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  2. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    You're right. It does look ridiculous.

    So it shouldn't surprise anyone that it's the completely wrong metric to judge a shotgun on.
     
  3. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Is falloff going to be bigger?
     
  4. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    It would make 224~256 max damage per shot. (Considering falloff/spread, let's say the expectation damage is 50% = 112~128)
    At this point shotgun is still deadly, but you actually get punished for an improper shot.

    This is what I was trying to say.

    Currently the max damage is 320. People can die fairly easy to one shot, with health upgrade, few meters away.
    That's definitely more than 130 damage, which is 40%. If you consider the infantry armor, it's even higher.

    I'd say 50% max damage is not too bad of an indicator for most close quarter combat, with out current falloff/spread.
     
  5. Candles

    Candles CAPTAIN CANDLES, DUN DUN DUN, DUN DUN DUN DUN.

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    Whoa whoa whoa, guys. Step back for a moment.

    Aren't we just going to switch to Empty's scripts anyway?

    I don't remember warning you about comparing them, I just tend to warn you how many players you're going to piss off.
     
  6. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    I can't recall exactly who it was, but I have recently talked with an experienced gren that was under the impression that the shotty pistol's cycle time was much much lower than reality.

    On that note, I haven't talked with Empty in ages. I need to hunt him down. Fucking time zones, how do they work?
     
    Last edited: Jan 4, 2015
  7. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Empty works funny hours, you can catch him in your early AMs quite often.
     
  8. Empty

    Empty Member

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    Woops my steam hasn't been logged in all day lol.

    I've been visiting family/at new years lan (lasted til the 3rd and I been working)
     
  9. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    On brittle vs NF missile boats:

    Also please think twice before researching lvl3s against HE and UGL on streets of fire.
     
    Last edited: Jan 5, 2015
  10. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Duhhh, Capacitive is sorta OP, so really nothing but Capacitive is useful vs anything.
     
  11. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    I was mostly talking about how you have to pull out after just two volleys of triple ML since your four plates of brittle just shattered away. The fact that in between those two volleys I took away a plate and a half is another story, but capacitive was already talked over ;)
     
  12. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Capacitive is gud.

    I thought that's Compo with Gren armor upgrade when I encountered it for the first time.
     
  13. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Well, none of the armors are supposed to be particularly good. That's the intention.

    But I don't see why we can't make it a smidge more extreme in both directions. The downside is that it starts to become a rather impressive anti-bio armor since bio DOT isn't affected by the speed to damage penalty (I think). But what the hell, I'm supposed to do everything that DDD says, so I have to deliver on that, right? :|ove: :|ove: :|ove: :|ove: :|ove:
     
  14. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I don't get why people think brittle is a anti ml armor, there isn't anything special about it besides taking more damage from most things.
     
  15. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    I assume this because it takes more damage from cannons and anti-vehicle MGs. This leaves us with stickies, RPGs and missiles, and the first two don't really have any armours that are good/bad against them.
     
  16. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    It's got more health than it should.

    A balanced 15 weight armor should generally have 60HP unless there are special things going on. Brittle has more than that. Yeah, there's a penalty, but the idea is that if the penalty is low enough, then you still have "bonus" HP left. If the penalty is a smidge higher then you hit that threshold where the armor is "balanced". If the penalty gets higher still, then you're below "balanced" and there's an implicit penalty to using the armor.

    Don't get me wrong, I do agree with DDD that some tweaks are in order, but that's the spirit behind a proper anti-ML armor.
     
  17. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I get that, but it doesn't make any sense. You can add in a simple ml resist, which works because you standardized ml damage to all be 40. I just feel that the speed to damage while providing a strange and neat way of making things a little less rigid makes things harder to balance properly. Like you can't really adjust the speeds of the mls too much without making them less or more effective.

    Point is there isn't much reason to complicate things for complicated reasons.
     
  18. ImSpartacus

    ImSpartacus nerf spec plz

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    Oh, I feel ya. Brittle was implemented earlier than I wanted. It's going to be half-assed until the port's cannon recoil bug is fixed.

    But in general, I don't like resistances. If every player looked at the changelog or the scripts, then we could make elaborate armors with straight resistances. Since we don't have that population, there needs to be an intuitive link to "resistances" or you're just pulling shit out of your ass.

    It just so happens that things like speed to damage provide a clean way to do strengths & weaknesses with one elegant armor trait.
     
  19. Empty

    Empty Member

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    You can put it in the armor blurb and add damage types.

    Concussive Damage 30%
    Impact Damage 20%
    Bio Damage 60%
    Explosive Damage 0%

    Display damage types somehow on weapons (in their blurbs and maybe alter icons) standardise it somewhat (so machine guns do the same damage as railguns, generally, explosive cannon and nukes are both the same type of damage, etc etc

    EDIT: the problem with your system of the intuitiveness of 'it goes fast it hurts this armor more' is kinda less transparent than you think, it's so nebulous as to how much speed affects it, especially since different projectiles deal different damage at the same speed that the player can't really make a solid connection and compare armors in their head, it hurts theorycrafting and players often have no idea how effective an armor TRULY is despite what the guidelines indicate.

    Exhibit A
    for ages people thought regen was weak to bio because the description said it was, in reality regen kicked bio's ass because regen ticks cancelled the dot

    Exhibit B
    for about 3 years everyone tilted their tanks sideways with reflective because they thought it reduced damage by 50%. It didn't. It never did. It's still broken as far as I know, but people just couldn't tell in the thick of battle how much reflective was working or not.


    EDIT: with simple, easily visible damage types and resists you can also theorycraft a lot easier.

    E.g.

    Missile does 40 damage and uses missile damage type

    Armor A has 15HP and 40% missile resist

    Armor B has 35 HP and 0% missile resist

    Tank carries 4 plates

    Armor A has 60HP, taking 24 damage per rocket, 2.5 rockets destroy all armor

    Armor B has 140 HP, taking 40 damage per rocket, 3.5 rockets destroy all armor.

    Armor B is better vs missiles so we should use it vs missiles.
     
    Last edited: Jan 6, 2015
  20. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Empty is pretty much spot on, things like speed to damage affects so many things in various ways no one really can tell how much damage anything is doing without pulling out the calculator and sifting through scripts. Though I'm surprised by the regen bio thing, I wonder which release that was before it was fixed.

    Part of the nice thing about things like reflective and speed to damage is that it does create more of a soft counter thing, which I like. It's just if you do want to make armors with a specific strength/weakness like brittle it just doesn't work in predictable ways, making that hard counter not very worthwhile.
     

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