Diversification-Based Tech Tree Design

Discussion in 'General' started by RoboTek, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    I have designed an entire tech tree around the concepts of diversification of technology.

    First some notes:

    Code:
    Tech Tree	Time	Cost
    Tier1:	        45	300
    Tier2:	        90	600
    Tier3:	        180	1200
    Specific Techs	25	300
    
    Note: Costs for tanks will be different (cheaper, see later)
    Note: Resource scaling cannot be as extreme as it is currently. Will need to be approximately 20% increase per 10 players.

    Medium tanks all have +1 cooling
    Heavy tanks all have +2 cooling

    All turrets are start at MKII when built by commanders.
    MG turrets now have 75% health (and thusly reduced build time) and cost 75
    ML turrets now have 300% health (and thusly hugely increased build time) and cost 300


    Part1: the Tech Trees

    Code:
    		Physics	
    Tier1:	Ballistics	Tier2	Improved MG turret
    Tier2:	Plasma Weapons	Reflective Armor	Tier 3
    Tier3:	Fusion Weapons	Fission Engine
    Code:
    	Chemistry	
    Improved Explosives	Absorbent Armor	Tier2
    Stable Explosives	Coolant Engine	Tier3
    Improved Building Materials	Unstable explosives	
    
    Code:
    	Electrical	
    Reactive Armor	Computer Ignition	Tier2
    3-Phase Engine	Computer Guidance	Tier3
    Improved ML turret	Electromagnetic Propulsion	
    
    Code:
    		Mechanical	
    Tier1:	Light Weapons	Gas Turbine	Tier2
    Tier2:	Micro-Weapons	Vehicle Design	Tier3
    Tier3:	Composite Weapons	Composite Armor	
    
    	Vehicle Design		
    MKII Light Tanks	Medium Tanks	Artillery	Heavy Tanks
    Tier1 Cost		Tier2 Cost	Tier2 Cost	Tier3 Cost
    MIII Light Tanks	MKII Mediums	MKII Artillery	Alternative Designs
    Tier3 Cost		Tier3 Cost	Tier3 Cost	Tier2 Cost
    Code:
    	Biology	
    Human Enhancement	Bio-diesel Engine	Tier2
    Regenerative Armor	Resilient Cultures	Tier3
    Human Enhancement II	Gaseous Cultures
    
    	Human Enhancement		Effects Stack			
    Tier 1 Time ½ cost	Improved AT 	+15 Damage	Improved Fitness	+5% Speed	Improved Health	+10 Health
    Tier 2 Time ½ cost	Improved AT II	+20 Damage	Improved Fitness II	+10% Speed	Improved Health II	+15 Health
    Tier 3 Time ½ cost	Improved AT III	+25 Damage	Improved Fitness III	+15% Speed	Improved Health III	+25 Health
    		% boost to all AT weapons				
    
    
    	Human Enhancement II		Effects do not Stack			
    Tier 1 Time ½ cost	Regeneration	2 HP/Sec	Resilience 	-25% explosion dmg	Leadership	1.5x squad points
    Tier 2 Time ½ cost	Regeneration II	5 HP/Sec	Resilience II	-50% explosion dmg	Leadership II	2x squad points
    Tier 3 Time ½ cost	Regeneration III9 HP/Sec	Resilience III	-75% explosion dmg	Leadership III	3x squad points
    Next: Specifics - Weapons armor and engines.
     
  2. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Weapons Armor and Engines

    Code:
    Physics			Damage	Cycle Time	Heat/Shot	Ammo	Weight	Accuracy	Special	Reload	Velocity	Blast Radius	Slots	Catagory	Cost
    Ranged Cannon		100	2.25		20		40	60	¼ Gravity			3300		100		2	CN		130
    ER Artillery		140	1.5		20		8/6	100	Perfect				2200		600		2	Art		55
    50-Cal MG		80	0.2		4		40/3	40	Poor				100000		1		2	MG		80
    DU MG			20	0.4		4		40/2	50	Poor		Anti-tank	100000		1		2	MG		80
    
    Tier2												
    Plasma Cannon		160	3.25		60		25	65		+45 Heat		3000		50		2	CN		145
    Plasma Lance		40	0.5		30		2/4	30		+35 Heat 	6 sec	4800		50		1	ML		45
    Plasma MG		2	0.2		10		30/3	40	Excellent	+9 Heat 3 sec		50			2	MG		55
    
    Tier3												
    Microfusion Missile	300	1		60		1/5	40				5 sec	2000		200		3	ML		90
    Microfusion Grenade	1000	5		30		3/3	50		Wall-Killer	10 sec	500		300		1	Gren		50
    												
    												
    												
    Chemistry		Damage	Cycle Time	Heat/Shot	Ammo	Weight	Accuracy	Special	Reload	Velocity	Blast Radius	Slots	category	Cost
    UML			80	1		15		6*/5	80			4 Seconds	2000		300		2	ML		130
    Solvent Sprayer		10	0.1		4		20/5	80	ok	Anti-wall	5 sec	100		50		3	MG		50
    Upg Grenade		110	1.5		15		12/3*	55			10 seconds	900		400		2	Gren		100
    
    Tier2													
    HE Cannon		120	2		20		25	70					3000		500		2	CN		180
    HE MG			20	0.5		8		20/6	70		Anti-tank	5 sec	100000		150		2	MG		200
    HE Arty			160	2		20		8	100			4 Seconds	1500		1000		2	Arty		140
    
    Tier3												
    Unstable Grenade	110	.2 Burst	25		3/5	80	Higher Grav/Poor		1100		900		3	Gren		150
    Siege Cannon		60	1.5		16		20	65	Full-Grav			3000		800		2	CN		200
    FaceMelter		50	1		10		3/6*	70				3 sec	900		1100		2	ML		70
    												
    												
    												
    Electrical		Damage	Cycle Time	Heat/Shot	Ammo	Weight	Accuracy	Special	Reload	Velocity	Blast Radius	Slots	category	Cost
    Burst Cannon		30	.1 Burst	8		3/9	50					3400		300		2	CN		100
    Electronic MG		8	0.05		0.5		200	50	Perfectish		10 Sec	10000		1		1	MG		90
    Burst Artillery		50	.2 Burst	10		3/6	60	Ok		1		2000		50		2	Art		60
    
    Tier2												
    Exp Homing ML		100	1		20		4/6	70	Awesome Home		4 Sec	2500		300		3	ML		65
    Exp Guided ML		80	1		20		4/5	70	Awesome Guide		4 Sec	2500		300		3	ML		65
    Guided ML		80	0.9		20		4/7	50	Ok Guide		3 sec	2000		250		2	ML		70
    Homing ML		70	0.75		20		4/8	50	Quick Home		3 sec	2000		250		2	ML		70
    
    Tier3													
    TAG Missile		30	1		30		1/8	110	Excel Homing  +80 Heat	9 Sec	2000		50		1	ML		50
    Railgun			80	0.8		25		40	70					3600		200		3	CN		200
    Mag-Artillery		200	1		15		6/10	120	Perfect	High-Grav	3 sec	3000		200		2	Art		90
    												
    												
    												
    Mechanical		Damage	Cycle Time	Heat/Shot	Ammo	Weight	Accuracy	Special	Reload	Velocity	Blast Radius	Slots	category	Cost
    Light Cannon		40	1.4		10		30	40					3000		300		1	CN		80
    Light Missile		40	1.1		10		4/6	20				4 sec	1600		300		1	ML		40
    Spark Grenades		20	1		20		4/8	30		+10 Heat	4 Sec	800		400		2	Gren		40
    
    Tier2												
    Micro-Cannon		50	1.3		11		15	35					2800		350		1	CN		90
    Micro-Missile		60	1		15		2/5	15				2 sec	1700		350		1	ML		50
    Micro-Artillery		100	1		10		2/4	40				1 sec	1400		500		1	Art		50
    
    Tier3													
    Pneumatic Lance		200	4		10		2/5	85	Perfect			5 seconds		1		3	MG		200
    												
    												
    Biology			Damage	Cycle Time	Heat/Shot	Ammo	Weight	Accuracy	Special	Reload	Velocity	Blast Radius	Slots	Cat	Bio  		Cost
    												
    Infantry Upgrade begin
    												
    Tier2												
    Corrosive Cannon	20	1.5		10		30	40		Anti-wall		2400		75		1	CN	5dps/60s	80
    BioMG			5	0.2		1		60/3	50					10000		75		2	MG	5dps/20s	80
    Acid Grenades		5	1		5		5/10*	60		Quick-burst		500		200		3	GL	25dps/6s	100
    
    Tier3												
    BioML			10	3		20		3/4	65				3 sec	1800		500		2	ML	7dps/80s	120
    BioArtillery		20	1		5		8/6	100				4 Sec	2000		1800		2	Art	5dps/90s	120
    Plague MG		10	0.5		10		20/5	90	Good	Anti-infantry	6 sec	10000		500		3	MG	4dps/40s	160
    
    Code:
    Armor		Weight	Armor	Cost	Special								
    Normal		10	40	5	No								
    Absorbent	5	40	6	Speed to damage -0.009								
    Reactive	20	80	10	Damage to heat .25								
    Reflective	12	60	10	1 Angle modifier								
    Regenerative	8	50	8	.1 Regeneration Rate								
    Composite	10	80	12	.25 Angle, .0001 Spd2Dmg
     
  3. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Engines

    Code:
    	Engine												
    	Jeep Speed	Apc Speed	Light Speed	Med Speed	Hvy Speed	Art Speed	Cooling	Stall Temp	Jeep Hrspw	APC Hrspw	Light Hrspw	Med Hrspw	Hvy Hrspw
    Normal	40		32		37		33		30		27		4/2*	1		400		900		2000		2500		3000
    Gas	57		45		55		47		43		39		6/4*	1		866		1950		4300		5400		6500
    Bio	53		40		50		44		40		36		6/4*	2		1050		2400		5300		6700		8000
    Coolant	45		35		45		39		35		32		8/6*	2		1333		3000		6600		8300		10000
    3-Phase	75		60		68		61		55		50		6/4*	0.4		400		900		2000		2500		3000
    Fission	67		55		62		55		50		45		7/3*	0.9		933		2100		4700		4800		7000
    													Idle/Driving
     
  4. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Tanks

    Code:
    BE		Base cost	Cannon Slots	MG slots	ML Slots	GL Slots	Weight Cap	Armor Plates	Low Cost	Medium Cost	High Cost	Low Cost	Medium Cost	High Cost	Average Cost
    Jeep		35		0		0		0		0		30		0		0		0		0		35		35		35		35
    APC		100		0		3		0		3		240		3		167		301.23		325.23		267		401.23		425.23		364.49
    AFV		50		1		1		1		0		320		3		103.67		355.38		442.15		153.67		405.38		492.15		350.4
    AFV II		50		2		1		1		0		320		3		135.33		386.77		473.54		185.33		436.77		523.54		381.88
    AFV III		50		3		1		1		0		320		3		167		418.15		504.92		217		468.15		554.92		413.36
    Medium		75		2		2		2		0		340		4		159.33		411.08		502.15		234.33		486.08		577.15		432.52
    Medium II	75		2		3		2		0		380		4		191		411.08		502.15		266		486.08		577.15		443.08
    Heavy		200		2x3		2		3		0		470		6		334		617.08		744.46		534		817.08		944.46		765.18
    Alt Heavy	100		4		2		0		3		450		5		246.67		594.62		717.69		346.67		694.62		817.69		619.66
    
    Code:
    NF		Base cost	Cannon Slots	MG slots	ML Slots	GL Slots	Weight Cap	Armor Plates	Low Cost	Medium Cost	High Cost	Low Cost	Medium Cost	High Cost	Average Cost
    Jeep		35		0		0		0		0		30			0	0		0		0		35		35		35		35
    APC		100		0		3		0		3		240			3	167		301.23		325.23		267		401.23		425.23		364.49
    LT		50		1		1		1		0		270			2	79.67		294.62		367.85		129.67		344.62		417.85		297.38
    LT II		50		1		2		1		0		270			2	111.33		323.23		396.46		161.33		373.23		446.46		327.01
    LT III		50		1		3		1		0		270			2	143		351.85		425.08		193		401.85		475.08		356.64
    Medium		75		2		2		2		0		340			4	159.33		411.08		502.15		234.33		486.08		577.15		432.52
    Medium II	75		2		2		2		2		380			4	159.33		411.08		502.15		234.33		486.08		577.15		432.52
    Heavy		200		3		2		2x3		0		470			6	334		617.08		744.46		534		817.08		944.46		765.18
    Alt Heavy	250		0		2+3		3		0		470			8	287		603.54		727.23		537		853.54		977.23		789.26
    
     
  5. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Finally turrets

    Code:
    	Turrets:Commander Turrets begin at MKII		
    		Missile		MG	
    Cost		300		75	
    Health		300		75	
    Current Health	100		100	
    Stat Build HP	25		5	
    MKI Damage	60		3	
    MKII Damage	120		4	
    MKIII Damage	180		5	
    Cycle Time	2		0.075 -	13 shots per sec
    MIII Research	Tier 3 EE	Tier 1 Physics	
    *Range Progression as current		

    Improved Building Materials:
    75% Building cost
    +50% Max Health
    +50% Max Health bonus to start-health

    Alternately
    50% Building Cost
     
  6. Headshotmaster

    Headshotmaster Member

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    What Robotek's idea is, to essentially make single tech path's inefficient, forcing players to diversify. This would in turn lead to more interesting matches, and settle conflict with the current tech system.

    Example, a tech path has heavy weapons, but they generate a lot of heat. In turn, the engine in that path wouldn't dissipate heat that well.

    That is the most basic example, however robotek can better explain as people begin to ask questions.
     
  7. ScardyBob

    ScardyBob Member

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    I'm a bit confused on how the research path is organized. Could you put one of the trees in this layout as an example?
    Code:
                    Physics
                        |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Research1        Research2        Research3
    
     
  8. Demented

    Demented Member

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    Dear Mr. Robotek,

    I very much like to play with superlights. How would I research them in your tech tree, and is it still worthwhile to research them?

    Thanks very much,
    Demented

     
  9. Beerdude26

    Beerdude26 OnThink(){ IsDownYet(); }

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    Why yes, but superlights will take somewhat longer to research than before. We apologize for the inconvenience.*


    * I actually have no idea if superlights are still researchable
     
  10. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Bob, I was going to do that but it was incredibly painful when I tried, I will give it another go though, just for you.

    Demented:
    There are a few ways, but I will give a basic example

    EE: 45 seconds 300 res
    Reactive Armor: 25 seconds 300 res
    Tier 2 EE: 90 seconds, 600 res
    3-Phase: 25 seconds, 300 res <- Super Lights kinda here (3 minutes, 1500 res)
    Mech1: 45 seconds 300 res
    Mech2: 90 seconds, 600 res
    MicroWeapons: 25 seconds, 300 res <- Ultra Lights Here (Nearly 6 minutes, 2700 res)
    Vehicle Design: 25 seconds, 300 res
    Light Tank II: 45 seconds, 300 res <- Super-Ultra Lights here (7 minutes, 3300 res)
    Computer Guidance: 25 seconds, 300 res <- Mega Lights here (7 minutes 30 sec, 3600 res)
    Light Tank III: 180 seconds, 1200 res <- Ultra Mega Lights here (10 minutes 30 sec, 4800 res)
    Mechanical III: 180 seconds, 1200 res
    Composite Armor: 25 seconds, 300 res<-Super Ultra Mega Lights here (14 minutes, 6300 res)

    That is the realistic progression for the most reliable super-lights possible, in theory you could go for physics, but they would take alot longer before they started being useful, but have nukes at the end.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2009
  11. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Code:
    Tier1(catagory name)=45s 300$
    Tier2=90s, 600$
    Tier3=180s, 1200$
    Other Items= 25s 300$ unless otherwise specified
    
    
                    Physics
                        |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons1        Tier2        MG Turret MKII
    		    |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons2        Tier3        Reflective Armor
    		    |
         ----------------
         |              |
    Weapons3        Fission Engine
    
    
                    Chemistry
                        |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons1        Tier2        Absorbent Armor
    		    |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons2        Tier3        Coolant Engine
    		    |
         ----------------
         |              |
    Weapons3        Improved Building Materials
    
    
                    Electrical
                        |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons1        Tier2        Reactive Armor
    		    |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons2        Tier3        3-Phase
    		    |
         ----------------
         |              |
    Weapons3        MG Turret MKIII
    
    
                    Mechanical
                        |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons1        Tier2        Gas Turbine
    		    |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Weapons2        Tier3        Vehicle Design--------------------------------------
    		    |					45s|300$   90s|600$ 180s|1200$
         ----------------				        LT MKII    Medium     Heavy
         |              |				       180s|1200$ 180s|1200$ 90s|600$
    Weapons3        Composite Armor			LT MKIII Medium MKII Alt Heavy   
    
    
                    Biology
                        |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
       Bio-Deisel    Tier2    	Infantry1----------------------------------------
    		    |					   |          |         |
         ---------------------------------			Health    AT Damage   Speed         45s   150$
         |              |               |			   |          |         |
    Weapons2        Tier3        Regenerative Armor         HealthII  AT DamageII SpeedII       90s   300$
    		    |		        		   |	      |         |
         ----------------		        		HealthIII AT DamageIII SpeedIII     120s  600$
         |              |
    Weapons3        Infantry2
    		    |
         ---------------------------------
         |              |               |
    Regeneration    Exp Resist       Leadership     45s   150$
         |              |               |
    RegenerationII  Exp ResistII     LeadershipII   90s   300$
         |              |               |
    RegenerationIII Exp ResistIII    LeadershipIII  120s  600$
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2009
  12. aaaaaa50

    aaaaaa50 Member

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    I don't know yet whether to agree or disagree with this, uh, design, but I will say that the "Vehicle Design" and "Human Enhancement" trees feel tacked-on to the Mechanical and Biological trees. Is there any reason they cannot be separate trees of their own, in addition to the current 5 base trees?
     
  13. MajorTom

    MajorTom Member

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    ...
    ......
    .........
    ............
    ...............
    ............
    .........
    ......
    ...

    Why is Robo not a dev?
     
  14. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Because he just did some legwork. He wouldn't become a dev unless people decide that what he has done is good and accept that he can do more good ideas.

    As for ontopic...I applaud what you're doing, but my brain doesn't seem to be in the mood to assimilate new data, so i'll come back later and provide feedback. I was thinking we'd all get to making a tree eventually, but stupidly, I figured we'd all get there...which never works. One person always has to come up with a reworked tree for anything to happen.

    Of course, it doesn't always go anywhere...as with Drag's complete rehaul.
     
  15. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    This really isn't much work from my perspective, designing and balancing this is literally something I do when bored. Weapons are categorized and balanced based on initial damage (physics) efficiency by heat (chem) efficiency by weight (mech), maximum damage per second (EE), and maximum total damage (bio).

    Both bio and mechanical are mostly about infantry and vehicle upgrades, but have accompanying weapons that are less meaningful with their respective vehicle/infantry upgrades. Light weapons aren't useful for heavy tanks, and bio's better anti-infantry isn't as useful when your own infantry is awesome.

    Both represent both means of advancement, and cover every spread of cost/time investment. Vehicle achieved at tier2 mech, infantry and 1 and 3 bio. Infantry upgrades are very cheap at first and must be scaled up individually, but stack - better vehicles are chosen a la carte and are individually often very expensive to get.

    I wanted to cover every form of strategic decision players might want while keeping empires in its current overall themes.

    I hated drag's scripts because they removed most the strategic elements and boiled down to trying to climb a specific path as fast as possible. With this version, every path is poor when isolated, but can gain alot when you interlink them.
    (physics has poor overall efficiency, chem weighs too much and its cooling isn't necessary, EE generates alot of heat together, and its armor generates more heat when hit, and its engine responds poorly to heat, you could fill a vehicle with mechanical weapons, but they won't amount to much, and bio doesn't stack with itself and is weak against itself.)
    Meanwhile when and in what way you link the paths is an important strategic decision, as there IS a progression where you become gradually better by sticking to the same path.
     
  16. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Yeah, I used to create RPG systems and things like that...but what really defeats me about making an Empires system is that I always feel the need to create the weapons, rather than just a placeholder tree. And I want to make the "best" tree, which of course will never exist.

    Yes, I didn't really like Drag's system either, however, it was shot down without refinement and pretty quickly that... Well, I guess your system built on our current has more chance.

    It does sound good the way you spin it though *crosses fingers*.
     
  17. Mageknight

    Mageknight Member

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    Man, at first I turned up my nose at yet another stab at the tech tree, but I've come around. The amount of legwork you've done is fantastic, and it looks to me like some number-tweaking and script-writing away from being seriously functional.

    It brings Empires gameplay in line with a more classical RTS tech tree, which could make for some really, really interesting matches.
     
  18. Headshotmaster

    Headshotmaster Member

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    I guess the first step is making scripts and testing them. I volunteered to make them, but I'm busy with real life and am going really slowly...Im also deciding if I want to make scripts for 2.24 or 2.25 D:
     
  19. RoboTek

    RoboTek Member

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    Either way, I should have the basic scripts up by the end of the week.

    I am aware that vehicles are, for the most part, significantly more fragile and slightly more powerful. It is a fairly simple matter to universally scale armor health if more survivability is desired and scale weight if different amounts of equipment capacity are desired.
     
  20. Drag

    Drag Member

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    Ludicrous "Human Enchancement" techs aside, the first thing I'd test is whether you get light tanks to run with... what... 68 speed + scout speed upgrade.

    There is a reason the current lights are capped at 50 you know, you better get some help from that guy that did some legwork on the vehicle physics scripts or change the numbers to a level that doesn't force tears into my eyes.
     

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