Discord fever dream that produced balancing discussion

Discussion in 'General' started by BigTeef, Nov 16, 2018.

  1. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Syo Much Content
    Today at 19:58


    I provided two suggestions on balancing the game which either provides more depth or removes it. Needs to be workshopped. But I think the game would be easier to balance if you remove some things or provide reasons for somebody to get something else over something else that isn't based on situations.
    Like that dreadful pentagram system told you about years ago or simply removing armor and engine balancing and have slider on what type of tank you want and weapon. So everyone gets the type of tank they want without negatively affecting the other people on the team. When the commander researches something, the team has to use or it's nothing at all. I want a fast moving tank that does damage, but im trading it for no armor and heating. Or I want a tank that can sit there in stay in fights but do no damage and moves slow as shit. Everyone has their own idealized version of a tank and certain research. It would streamline the
    research.


    Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:03
    Emp_sv_research_complete 1?


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:03


    And make it less complicated for commanders and give them more reason to focus on the battles.
    Its more along the lines of you got 3 sliders and you just move it left or right and depending on what slot each slider is on determines what kind of tank you spawn trade damage for range speed for armor heat vs maneuverability Its gotta be worked on but its an example. And it eliminates the decade problem of everyone using the same research meta every single script change and patch. Everyone uses compo, compo gets nerfed and now everyone uses reactive. They just simply pick what armor and weapon type they want and adapt accordingly to the battle based on results of past failures or whats working.

    The other method wad the pentagram system of counters which always forces people to get different research
    because if you always go electrical somebody will go physics and just counter everything so im going chemistry and going to try to counter their predicted physics route. Balancing is a fucking nightmare
    So why not remove the complexity from it so its easier to balance


    Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:07

    Were you the very guy I talked to regarding this? I still don't think we can't elimiate the "decade problem" with the current setting, just needs a little more work. Also I disapprove "hard-counter" with serious reasons.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:07


    Those were the ideas I came up with atleast

    Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:08

    Is that "hard-counter" you are suggesting in the end?
    The last few sentences.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:08


    Weapons that counter certain armors and engines determine how fast and slow a tank is. So a physic gun counter a bio armor but a electrical armor neutralizes a physics gun forcing them to get a bio gun for example.


    Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:09

    Okay. Give me a sec.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:10


    I don't know what should counter what but the picture in my head is a pentra grambecause it matches the 5 sides of the resarch tree on the main menu.


    Sgt.Security
    Today at 20:10


    https://forums.empiresmod.com/index...ainst-armor-counters.20669/page-2#post-537836

    What I have against armor-counters. | Page 2 | Empires Mod
    Ive suggested this before, when you sab the enemy radar you get to see the research they have gotten till then This is a very simple example of what...

    Reply #25, give me your feedback.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:11


    You already gave me your feedback. I know im not the only person to suggest this. This is just repeat of argument I had with you but its you vs somebody else.

    Sgt.Security
    Today at 20:12
    Yeah, I know for sure this discussion existed.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:12


    I had it with candles and he said similar shit. But there will always be a go to armor and engine
    if you want to stop that from happening. Make something that decentivizes from getting it outside of
    situational. There will always be a majority of a certain situation than another. Speed is always the issue. I need to go fast or im fucked. That happens more than, I am overheating and dying too quickly


    Sgt.Security
    Today at 20:14


    I have to be dead honest here, I am still not convinced that we can't balance ""the current setting"" to the point that most researches are viable and usable in different cases. At least for the works I've done in the past 2 years, I am getting even more positive on that thought.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:15


    Im still getting reactive and 3phase though because it gives me the best results
    I get advanced coolent where people don't have
    maneuverability. But I dont play those maps a lot compared to open space maps


    Sgt.SecurityToday at 20:16

    Yes but, I did hear from other comms that some other thing is better, and with the exact same reason "I just feel like I win more with that". I am not to question your credibility, I am just saying you are not alone in this case. I am not saying we ARE at the sweet spot.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:16


    Exactly


    Sgt.Security
    Today at 20:16


    But, I still think we can try to reach that.
    can STILL try, not ready to lose all hope.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:16


    I think the easiest way to do that though is decentivse me from getting it outside of it being situational. Have more contributing factors. Than just it works in these instances because those instances happen more than other instances. This is why I also came up with the slider idea. Remove the complexity entirely and just boil it down to personal preference.

    Both ways are the easiest way to balance this problem. Like wouldn't it be nice if you had a commander than paid attention to the team more often. You can do that by removing one of the plates they have to balance
    Giving them more wiggle room. If I don't have to worry about research builds and just focus on getting you meds, heavies, and arties. I have more room to give you attack orders, place buildings respond to ref calls, organize. Hell you can put the tank chassis behind timers

    meds 15 minutes
    heavies 30 minutes
    arties 45 minutes

    They unlock as the game progresses. And the timers are determined if my radar is up long as my radar is up it slowly unlocks the next tank tier. I love plasma. But I never get it. Because my team hates plasma but if I was on the field in a tank I would want plasma and play a support tank. And be that guy that helps my team get tank kills. Treat tanks like counter strike load-outs I mean everyone gets what they want. And you can treat each weapon like a gun like in a first person shoot
    Im tired


    Sgt.Security
    Today at 20:33


    Might be a little too late but you can do a forums thread. I mean it's unhealthy that stuff like these (doesn't matter if we will ultimately use them or not) just gets flushed after a few days.


    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:35


    *crying is induced

    Sgt.Security
    Today at 20:36

    At least on forums I can still find the ELO system I suggested 7 years ago within 20 secs.

    Syo Much Content
    Today at 20:37


    Im tired man
    I spent two hours yelling at a discord box
    just copy and paste my 2 hours of mindless ranting
    and make it a thread
    Thats 100% what my threads usually are
    My fever dreams manifested
     
  2. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    I edited out the part I called security a crpytid asian that sounds like they are 7. Because I felt it didn't add to the discussion.
     
  3. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    You look like a forum moderator who deleted a porn link and write the exact same porn link in your reply just so people know that you deleted a porn link.

    I guess you just couldn't resist the tease.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2018
  4. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    I have to keep up appearances or my creditability will be questioned.
     
  5. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    PYA Today at 01:28

    Jesus Christ @Syo Much Content I can barely parse this god damned thread could you please put it into paragraphs and points
    But from a quick scan, you want a slider-pentagram style tank customization and maybe chassis behind timers?
    So, like directly setting the balance of the tank instead of guessing, and to strictly enforce progression?

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:30

    Its suggestions for two completely different systems
    One system using the counter method and the other eliminating the need of researching of armors engines and weapons

    PYA Today at 01:32

    ?

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:32

    Bruh its completely separate from each-other
    They have no relation to each-other

    PYA Today at 01:32
    Er, I mean the first part
    Oh
    Ohhhh

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:33
    Are you familiar with magic the gathering

    PYA Today at 01:33
    You mean current system with time restrictions?
    or, maybe a slider system
    Kinda?
    Something about tapping mana to play things

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:33
    When MTG first started off it had 5 elements
    and each element countered one of the other elements
    and neutralized another
    We have 5 trees
    Just like MTG did

    PYA Today at 01:34
    Ahhhhhh.

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:34
    That's the counter method
    The other method is some weird bullshit I came up with using a slider where you drag a bar left and right and trying to figure out if you want more of something vs the other
    And you customize your load-out with it
    You have to sacrifice armor for speed
    You have to sacrifice cooling for maneuverability
    You have to sacrifice damage for range
    vice versa
    Or you just can leave your slider directly in the middle
    and have an adaptive tank

    PYA Today at 01:36
    Ahhhhh.
    Okay.
    I get ya

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:36
    You simply customize your tank loadout and style using the slider
    And you can create these pseudo tank classes
    like glass canons, actual tank tanks, snipers, scouts

    PYA Today at 01:37
    Hm, not going to dismiss your suggestions due to radicality but thinking about it..
    Syo Much Content Today at 01:37
    it needs to be workshoped(edited)

    PYA Today at 01:37
    Some potential pitfalls that need to be addressed
    Basically, you may end up in the same situation we are in currently

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:38
    I literately came up with two days ago

    PYA Today at 01:38
    I realized

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:38
    Even if it doesn't even get looked at, some bits and pieces can be salvaged from it such as armor and engine sliders.
    Trading speed for armor, or cooling vs maneuverability and handling.

    PYA Today at 01:38
    What's immediately coming to mind though, is there may be a .... "first order optimal strategy"
    That will basically defeat the purpose of the system
    In essence, think M203 in any shooter with it

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:39
    The fuck is a m203

    PYA Today at 01:39
    Underslung grenade launcher
    Basically it let you just, kind of fire an impact grenade immediately in most games it is present in
    So new players just, grab it, and "noob tube" the enemy
    Usually kills the other guy
    and it requires minimal skill
    So, like you can master other skills to get around the noob tube, but

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:40
    The issue is mostly that people keep using the same armor and engine regardless what is shooting at them because it simply performs better compared to others.

    PYA Today at 01:40
    That single strategy was optimal, for new players, and to a degree against most things it wins
    Pretty much, yeah

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:40
    And that keeps changing every patch
    So Make it a slider
    I want more armor vs speed

    PYA Today at 01:41
    What I'm saying is that, the meta will also fix in place with the slider system I'd think

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:41
    or speed for less armor

    PYA Today at 01:41
    I think anyway
    Because I suspect either, the balanced tank will win out
    Or you just have tons of "extreme" tanks

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:41
    Maybe eliminating armor and engine research all together
    and just having weapons

    PYA Today at 01:41
    Maybe.
    There are definite advantages
    Currently the system is both undocumented and esoteric as fuck
    Like we have no idea what is good research

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:42
    Good research is situational research

    PYA Today at 01:42
    With this it'd be clear as fuck

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:42
    Problem is the same situation keeps happening

    PYA Today at 01:42
    Agreed

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:42
    Hence why we keep using the same armor and engine

    PYA Today at 01:43
    I think though, that's caused by two factors

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:43
    Because it works for this situation

    PYA Today at 01:43
    Well, 3? Yeah.. See, we don't have enough situations, enough research variety, and information on research
    I think problem #2 will solve problem #1 though

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:43
    Hence why I suggested the counter idea

    PYA Today at 01:43
    Yeah. But that's, I feel like the opposite direction in which we should be going HM.
    I only really know RTS from like Starcraft, but

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:44
    The issue with the counter system is that you wont be able to tell what armor and engine they are using.
    Weapons are the only dead give away

    PYA Today at 01:45
    Armor detection could turn into status detection and you'd just have a read out. Just needs a good GUI

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:45
    Thats one way
    I hoped of different models for tank chassis
    so if I get bio armor

    PYA Today at 01:45
    That's a bit tougher due to a lack of, okay I can do it lol

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:45
    the tank middle part will have this weird nano armor hull

    PYA Today at 01:46
    I don't know man, I'm kind of in favor of Axeman's idea

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:46
    What was his idea

    PYA Today at 01:46
    Along with more research options
    Doctrines!

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:46
    The fuck is a doctrine

    PYA Today at 01:46
    Let me link you his thread
    https://forums.empiresmod.com/index.php?threads/suggestion-doctrines.21156/
    This to me feels like the best way to adjust Empire's commander gameplay
    Without too radical of a change. Your proposed ideas are at their core a paradigm shift.
    Which is fine, it's just we have to evaluate them. I feel like with this I can see how it plays out without having to test it

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:47
    Okay axeman is on drugs
    I knew that but still...

    PYA Today at 01:47
    This is a really good idea
    It means both sides can now choose
    Between light tank or AFV
    That sort of stuff

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:47
    The issue is that he played company of heroes
    for a day

    PYA Today at 01:47
    I hate that game

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:48
    Me too

    PYA Today at 01:48
    But, nah man
    Think about it

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:48
    But its the rts that introduced doctrines

    PYA Today at 01:48
    Research is underneath Doctrines
    Doctrines allow certain research
    But, there'd be a general path for research

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:48
    That plays into the counter idea though

    PYA Today at 01:48
    That you can modify
    Exactly!

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:48
    So basically builds
    Not doctrines

    PYA Today at 01:48
    But it's not a huge modification of the current game, you'd still have individual research items

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:49
    He just used a different name

    PYA Today at 01:49
    Eh? Sounds cooler

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:49
    These are builds

    PYA Today at 01:49
    Like, with Starcraft you can eventually get everything
    Builds came from, getting stuff at specific times

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:49
    This locks you out from getting everything

    PYA Today at 01:49
    Doctrines would be a game-play enforced path
    Yeah. Which I, think I like better? I don't know maybe
    Could just do what SC did

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:49
    The issue though is that one of these is going to simply be better
    because one of them compliments the most common situation

    PYA Today at 01:50
    Hm, see I don't know about that.

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:50
    Mobility

    PYA Today at 01:50
    Well, Axeman's specific suggestions. Maybe not
    But the concept at a high level, yeah. Because you can make the doctrines pretty extreme

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:50
    A tank that cant run away is a dead tank. A tank that cant chase cant kill another tank

    PYA Today at 01:51
    Yeppppp

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:51
    This happens all the time
    This is why we get 3phase
    And get reactive because its right next to 3phase

    PYA Today at 01:51
    What if we had engines that gave temporary speed boosts but were overall slower?

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:51
    Thats just a turbo button

    PYA Today at 01:51
    Yeah, but short.

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:52
    Right but thats what turbo does

    PYA Today at 01:52
    I'm basically saying we should steal more shit from MechWarriors

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:52
    temporary speed boost like the jeep

    PYA Today at 01:52
    Yep

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:52
    I don't think mechwarriors

    PYA Today at 01:52
    But like, another knob right

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:52
    should be the thing we steal from

    PYA Today at 01:52
    Because now depending on the details you can survive with a slow tank

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:52
    We should be stealing from our counter part
    The thing that inspired empires in the 1st place

    PYA Today at 01:52
    Battlefield?

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:53
    Battlezone
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/624970/Battlezone_Combat_Commander/

    PYA Today at 01:53
    Oh.

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:53
    This was empires before empires

    PYA Today at 01:53
    2018?

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:53
    remastered

    PYA Today at 01:53
    You know, the early 2000s had a bunch of these large scale battlefield games.
    There apparently is another FPS/RTS that's fantasy themed
    Can't remember the name

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:54
    Savage. Its a good game. Its our sister

    PYA Today at 01:54
    Yeah that game

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:54
    https://store.steampowered.com/app/366440/Savage_Resurrection/
    It just doesnt have tanks everything is just infantry and classes. Similar to natural selection

    PYA Today at 01:55
    I've seen but, uh yeah I think we really just more research variety. To start off but if we were going to change the system entirely
    I'd be down to test out sliders or hard counter systems. But I think having more research options and maybe more knobs to tweak on things...
    Like tanks having turbo, or maybe shit like modern tank features like turret stabilization whilst driving

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:56
    mobile turrets

    PYA Today at 01:57
    Yeah, stuff like that. Or like multi-person tanks

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:57
    They grow legs
    and become spiders

    PYA Today at 01:57
    Hehe

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:57
    A moving level 3

    PYA Today at 01:57
    Also, like armed jeeps. Like you can commit to guerilla warfare and get armor, and like an MG slot on a jeep

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:57
    scary until you throw a tank at it

    PYA Today at 01:57
    Yeah lol

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:58
    Right now im just focusing on features

    PYA Today at 01:58
    Maybe have things that adjust the handling on a tank too. More knobs

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:58
    Im not going to touch script balancing. Because fuck that. Ive just provided a few suggestions to remove that deep core issue
    that the game always had of established armor and engine

    PYA Today at 01:59
    Yeah.

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:59
    I want mark 2's back

    PYA Today at 01:59
    You can fuck off with that shit. I like the concept behind mark 2s
    But the implementation was braindead
    Light tanks with UML

    Syo Much Content Today at 01:59
    They would help low income teams who cant afford meds

    PYA Today at 01:59
    Great fucking idea yeah, which is nice but jesus
    I don't mind things like that but good fucking god
    That SPECIFIC implementation
    Hell the fuck no

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:00
    Just because they botched the implementation doesn't mean its really a bad idea

    PYA Today at 02:00
    I agree! But fuck man... We need more like, intermediate research before that shit happens
    Like, less powerful 2 slots or something Or, more powerful 1 slots

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:00
    I dunno maybe make mark 2's have more asymmetrical to them

    PYA Today at 02:00
    Because giving Mark 2s fucking medium tank weapons is baddddd

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:00
    like be gets 2 slot canon but keep 1 slot everything else

    PYA Today at 02:00
    Pretty sure that was it was Wait, no it wasn't
    jesus

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:01
    I swore it just gave level 2 weapons to every slot not just one slot

    PYA Today at 02:01
    Nah I think it did. God, fuck man. Seriously who thought that shit was a good idea
    That specific implementation that is light tanks with UMLs without any balancing

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:01
    Light vehicles have shit armor to begin with. Im confused how they were an issue because turrets are the only time effective When meds hit the field, turrets drastically go down to eventually pointless.

    PYA Today at 02:02
    It's mostly the vehicle to vehicle combat
    It's kind of like why, IMO, gren upgrade is busted
    You can rush it, and annihilate the other team

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:03
    I get that but turrets are designed to swat at apc and light vechicles

    PYA Today at 02:03
    Yep... but I mean
    Even against regular light vehicles
    They're not that effective unless they hit a critical mass

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:03
    Question. Can you make a level 4 turret?

    PYA Today at 02:04
    But why though? What the fuck is a level 4 turret?

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:04
    missiles and machine gun
    in one

    PYA Today at 02:04
    Oh, like TF2 style

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:04
    Yeah

    PYA Today at 02:04
    I mean, I could jerry rig it HMMM.
    That brings up a research item

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:05
    Then a level 5 it has legs

    PYA Today at 02:05
    Why not like, have research for dual-turrets that are less effective overall
    But can fire at everything
    Like, a DU turret

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:05
    Du doesn't do shit against infantry though
    Bio makes more sense

    PYA Today at 02:05
    I mean, not exactly DU
    I mean like, half the damage on the MG turret, and the ML

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:06
    not applying dot damage

    PYA Today at 02:06
    and stick it into one turret
    Or like, lower the fire rate
    Or both
    Maybe like some shitty laser turret

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:06
    What I would do is just make it a level 2 with rockets on it
    Just combine two level 2's into one

    PYA Today at 02:07
    Hm, but like having 3 levels to this hypothetical dual-turret
    So, you'd have the option of using that turret or the mg and ml

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:07
    I wouldn't. I either get level 3 mgs or missles or a hybrid level 2

    PYA Today at 02:07
    At a significantly higher cost... honestly we just need level 2 and 3 other buildings
    Like a level 2 barracks would kick ass

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:07
    I wouldn't even know what that looks like

    PYA Today at 02:07
    Well, I really want barracks teleportation

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:08
    hm Kill spawning

    PYA Today at 02:08
    Maybe like, you can teleport to armories from barracks. With level 2 barracks and level 2 armories turn into bunkers
    and level 2 radars .... do something
    Give armor detection in a small radius*
    Level 2 vehicle factories....

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:09
    In dawn of war, you can upgrade your resource points
    to get more resources
    for a small flat fee

    PYA Today at 02:09
    Speed boost on creation?
    Aye there we go

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:09
    The problem are the resource rates are tied to maps. You have to manually edit each map. This is why I think standardized rates is a good thing because its a variable in the code you tweak vs tweaking 30 maps.

    PYA Today at 02:10
    Yep
    Although, I like X's bespoke resource rate adjustments

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:11
    The problem with that is he made his own versions of the maps
    to make that work

    PYA Today at 02:11
    Yeah, which is insanity. Don't know why we don't just have config files that the game reads from seperate from the compiled map.
    But, besides that technical bit.I like the idea of level 2 refineries, sort of not sure how it'd play out.

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:12
    Not to mention it infringes on technical creative libel

    PYA Today at 02:12
    May just cause snowballing

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:12
    Just increase the resource tick rate with a small increase. Like x's server is one ref = 1 resource tick press a button level 2 ref.

    PYA Today at 02:12
    Maybe just like, increase ref health

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:12
    now it gives me 2 ticks and I have to manually upgrade each ref

    PYA Today at 02:13
    Yeah.
    Maybe, resources produced above level 1 refineries depend on HP

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:13
    Resource rates are decimals now

    PYA Today at 02:13
    with the minimum being a level 1 refinery rate

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:13
    so the rates have been increased by a fraction

    PYA Today at 02:13
    Yeah lol

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:15
    No offense but I just don't think level buildings is really a path we should take and just provide more building options. Like you said teleportation between points right without the need to spawn kill. Why not just make a tube?

    PYA Today at 02:16
    Yeah, that idea has been floated around forever

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:16
    A separate building designed for that purpose

    PYA Today at 02:16
    Kind of want a player cannon too but

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:16
    a what?

    PYA Today at 02:16
    Player cannon

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:16
    You want a catapult

    PYA Today at 02:17

    Not that sold on the idea in Empires though, feel like maintaining the frontline is the whole game
    This just breaks that entirely would like some sort of fast reinforcement tool.

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:18
    I want watch towers, bunkers, and walls that you can shoot from

    PYA Today at 02:18
    Since we have squad revives and revives as that tool currently

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:18
    Fixed guns
    And turrets on buildings

    PYA Today at 02:19
    Would honestly make the Scout better. Because there'd be shit to sabotage. Not sure if I like that idea that much though, if you can shoot people out of it sure. The counter-play may be bad.

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:19
    It bugs me there is no indicator to know what resarch they are getting

    PYA Today at 02:19
    Counter-play as in, the term Riot uses

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:19
    when radar is sabbed

    PYA Today at 02:19
    Yeah. I wish you could force your enemies to research other shit Or everyone's minimaps get fucking scrambled lol

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:20
    That's the point of the counter system

    PYA Today at 02:20
    I mean like, sabotaging it. You can just fuck with the enemy commander

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:20
    Forcing my enemies to get different tech

    PYA Today at 02:20
    That'd be annoying and unfun for the commander though

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:20
    every round

    PYA Today at 02:20
    Yeahhhh

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:20
    because of the threat of countering

    PYA Today at 02:20
    Yeah.

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:21
    And the balancing will look like a pentagram. Here it is
    [​IMG]
    Destroy means counter and insult means nullify
    while caress means neutral
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Stand the fuck back im trying to summon krenzo
    But you get the picture @PYA

    PYA Today at 02:33
    Yeah I get it
    Going to go to bed though
    Nice talking to ya

    Syo Much Content Today at 02:33
    Same
     
  6. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Man when you read it like this discord really is ass for decent discussion.

    In any case I don't like counter systems but i do like the slider idea. Whatever lets the player have more choice in how they want to play with their tank sounds good to me.
     
  7. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    If you think this looks bad, should of seen it before transcription. Copying and pasting convos from discord is ass.
    Im just going to do that here on the fourm so it looks neater.
     
  8. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I am still against hard-counters, with reasons addressed already.

    Here's the issues I see with "sliders"

    1: Most people will stick to an all-rounder setting, say, moderate-high armor, moderate-high firepower, normal speed, aka our current heavy tank.
    In a way, we would end up with even more stale vehicle customization.

    2: Simple sliders can not cover the abundant properties of our current weapons/armors/engines.
    Which means we either have to make the simple sliders not so simple, or remove all those properties.
    If we are making the system complicated, that's a big no-no, the reasons are the same as those I use against hard-counters.

    3:As you said, that's removing some depth from the game, but if you ask me, that's too much depth removed.


    So what do I propose? Just leave the system as it is, with better balance.

    I am still believing that the current structure "can" work.
    It's not like we have done all we possibly could and the system is still not looking good, it's not like that at all.
    From the feedback and my personal experience around 201
    I can still remember the day I took over 2.6.9, there's the 70hp Regen armor and guess what Empires is already 10 years old.
    You can't possibly be telling me that the system could not be improved and we should just get rid of the system.

    Last, this Discord chat festa is horrible to read, at least sum up the points so people who missed the Discord chat can still easily capture the points.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2018
  9. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    I am not editing 2 hours worth of discussion. It took 20 minutes for it to just be eligible.
     
  10. Señor_Awesome

    Señor_Awesome Member

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    Any instant messaging is terrible for discussion. Workplaces have all been marketed towards using slack, but when it comes time to make important decisions or nuanced arguments the critical thinking step gets thrown out the window because you reply right now instead of taking time to think.
     
  11. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    Kairo Last Sunday at 12:27
    2 Persons on server why is the game so dead all FPS RTS GAMES DIE


    DDDDestroyer Last Sunday at 12:28
    i can't speak for others, but for me the current experience is not fun, so i'm not playing


    Syo much content Yesterday at 17:40
    I have fun with the current shit on the condition there is actual balanced teams


    Sgt.Security Today at 00:11
    ^ I think most games aren't fun if they always give you unbalanced teams, imagine that.
    Also, if you ask why people don't play, I'll just say, it's a human nature to do things that "at least they think" are more worthy of their time.


    Syo much content Today at 11:58
    Empires would still be fun to me to be honest if tanks had built in load outs instead of waiting for resarch or research period. The game-play itself is so dynamic that I wouldn't really notice a feature like that missing. Unless I was the commander. I think that is one of the issues is the lack of understanding the commander role because nobody really knows what its like for the commander unless they command themselves at some point. I think that type of communication could be fixed but I wouldn't have any idea how. In battlezone there is something called a command bunker that random players outside of the commander can use and get an rts view of the battlefield and look at all the stuff the commander unlocked and look at how much something costs.

    And they could physically spectate the commander. They cant do anything other than just watch the commander. The commander is the only person who can use the com bunker to its full potential And he can place multiple ones. Because battlezone doesn't have a command vehicle. They have a command center. They have to physically build something to unlock the commander and RTS aspect of the game.So they could drive to the other-side of the map and place a com bunker, build it and then go spectate their base from miles away. Because in battlezone there were 1v1's and that game featured AI units that could you build and control. The only way to lose was to lose the command center

    Oktay Today at 12:05
    i would spam hover tank with laser turret


    Syo much content Today at 12:06
    Empires draws more inspiration from battlezone than any other game out there and it continues to bug me that im the only person who knows what the fuck battlezone is


    Oktay
    Today at 12:15
    i dont know if build in load outs improve the current state. because no matter how you balanced it will have a meta in terms of load outs


    Syo much content
    Today at 12:16
    Would be easier to balance though. There will always be some superior meta but gameplay balancing is a nightmare because of all these variables that are present. If you make the equation smaller and simpler its easier to find an answer. I am sure there is a way you can simplify and not remove the depth at the same time. But I don't think ignoring easy options either will help in the long run.
     
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2018
  12. BigTeef

    BigTeef Bootleg Headshot master

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    So I played two matches on Sunday on vanilla scripts and a server. I had fun but I have some opinions on it.
    There is some shit that Mr. X server does well with that I think vanilla empires can learn from. Here I will list them.
    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    • A consistent resource rate that is seen through all the maps and are balanced towards this end instead of each map having their own custom economy balancing.
    The reason why I suggest this is because it will make it easier on new players to understand empires economy and make it more clear how important refineries are. X's server resource rates were too low in my opinion. He updated them by 10% increase but I still don't like that. How he has his resources set up is that every single refinery produces 2 ticks. What I do on his server is capture refineries and boosting that 2 to a 10. And have a 10 point resource rate gain, and keeping an average around there. Anything below that im not satisfied with.
    What X did was modify a shitload of maps to fit this economy balancing of his. That's dumb as hell and it also fucks with the mappers content. I think there should be a varaible in the code that allows that uniform economy balancing without editing the maps. What I propose is this.

    Every refinery produces about 3. Meaning you need at-least 4 refineries under your control to achieve a 10+ average per second.

    Now another method in regards to the current resource rate. You can leave it as it is. But bring back research costing money. It will slow down research and keep teams economies from going unnecessarily large. This is an easier method but that also opens up an avenue of balancing costs. How I see it is bog down the resource rates to something lower or make people spend more money with the current high rates.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    • Two upgrades for the grenadier is unnecessary.
    I don't think gren should be able to solo a heavy tank regardless of skill. I think you should have a coordinated group kill a heavy tank instead of making it completely easier to kill tanks in general. I agree that the gren should have an upgrade. But I don't think he should have two of them. Which I think is 30% in damage increase? I think the class should only have 1 upgrade. Making it a 15% increase instead. Here is what I propose.

    Limiting the upgrade to 1 but adding that buff the gren gets, to their mortar as well making them the class that is better suited to taking down buildings. And move the gren upgrade to chemistry next to UGL.

    We have an issue of people not really exploring the gren because of how engineer is more useful utility wise. When all of us know is that class is one of the cornerstones to the game in regards to game play. The epitome of easy to use hard to master class. We also run into the issue of the commander making a complete B-line for that upgrade instead of getting armor-engine first. There is no reason for me to ignore that upgrade when I can have easy early game anti tank. So when I get that 2nd upgrade. Heavies tanks are right there for me to unlock. It's so much easier to get heavy tanks earlier in the game because the game incentivised me so much to get that 2nd gren upgrade. I don't think heavies should come into play at the 15 minute mark unless the commander did some crazy research.

    ________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

    Now here is a suggestion that has nothing to do with scripts and balancing.
    • Bring back squad voice and add proximity voice
    The issue empires has had for years is people talking over each other in important moments and being unable to hear the commander and relay information correctly and coherently. If I am directing a squad. The team doesn't need to hear me telling individual players what to do unless it affects the bigger picture. Proximity and squad voip can increase squad cohesion immensely without hurting the team communication at large. (I also low key want to be able to shit talk the enemy commander when I ram my tank into him and ̶m̶a̶y̶b̶e̶ ̶m̶i̶c̶ ̶s̶p̶a̶m̶ ̶t̶o̶o̶)

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    • Changing the research timers for Tanks.
    This one I think I will agree with X on is the timers he set for the tanks. I think meds should be quicker and easier to get and heavies longer to get on the field. What he did was add a long timer on heavies and require a 750 resource requirement to unlock heavies.

    I think tanks in general should have a price attached to them to research but keeping armor, engines, and weapons free.


    This will make them take longer to field and extending that early game to maybe by a few extra minutes depending on how well a team is maintaining their economy. I don't think locking research behind money requirements is a bad idea but if everything costs money. Then a poor team will just not stand a chance at all. I want poor teams to still have a fighting chance which is going to segway into my next point.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    • Bring back Mk 2's
    I am not going to pretend I know what im doing in regards to balancing the game. I am going to make suggestions and spit ball ideas that could potentially be refined and workshopped until it can be viable. What I do think is a good idea though is the exsistance of mk 2's. Because this tank was the bread and butter of a low income team. Allowing them to field tanks and stand a chance against the higher end enemy tanks. Now from my understanding that past implementation of mk'2 was pretty broken and bad. Here is what I suggest.

    Allow them to fit more plates on mk'2 and make them a little faster rather than increasing their dmg or changing their weapon slots.

    I think that is a better way to balance them rather than increasing thier dmg because it will provide more sustainability making it easier for them to escape and repair or to push in tank fights. If they are a little more beefer, they can stay in engagements longer. I don't think grens should solo a heavy tank, but a med tank should be able to kill a heavy tank especially you calculate skill into the equation. Making it as little easier for that med tank to survive a heavy tank.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    • A brand new turret that can only be built by commanders
    These things usefulness falls off drastically as the game progresses. The moment nukes hit the field or a team goes chemistry these things might as well be useless if you are operating on the assumption the tank driver knows how to play. So instead of buffing them to be more useful in regards to health, dmg or range.

    Why not consolidate the costs by merging them?


    I think this is a good solution to making turrets more viable without touching their inherent script balancing. You don't need to change firing rate or dmg. Because by placing a com turret. I just got two for the price of one. That itself is a buff because its saving the commander money and time. Turrets themselves can be expensive making it harder for low income teams to defend their base. Especially in mass. You need a turret farm to keep your shit protected and that can be really expensive if every dollar counts at that current time frame. I don't think engineers should have the ability to build com turrets and force them to opt for a machine or a missile until they can place two turrets eventually. Making these turrets have more importance and value. Making the commander more useful to their team in a more direct approach outside of research and building.

    __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
    • Extend the count down timer
    The current timer is too short, and depending on latency and how potato a computer is. People can take a good minute before getting into a match. I don't think the game should start until both teams have their population.

    Increase it to 100 seconds than 60 seconds. Have the team type /ready which will shorten the timer to 15 seconds. When 3/4 of the team is ready shorten the counrdown.


    I can't stress enough that teams need their time to organize especially when people are still downloading or loading into the game. You need a longer time to take in the account that people are just simply slower and its out of their control. In my opinion the whole unit should only go as fast as the slowest person.
     
    Last edited: Dec 11, 2018 at 5:53 AM

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