Discussion in 'General' started by BigTeef, May 24, 2017.
Tech-Tree image taken from the wiki: https://wiki.empiresmod.com/Research#Tech_Tree_Images
Also post builds
Armor and engine first are highly recommended.
My default engine and armor.
3 phase motor
For maps with very little room to move around.
3 phase motar
For when my team is pretty good.
3 phase engine
Medium tanks are under mechanical engineering, upgraded chassis, and heavies are under advanced chassis.
Get Grenadier missiles 1st then tank chassis upgrades.
Gren missiles are under upgraded and advanced chassis next to the tank upgrades.
Heavy caliber machine gun
Extended range cannon
Guided missiles( you can swap out for bio missle under bio and biological weapons but that will take little bit longer)
Extended range cannon
Improved Warhead Compounds
Upgraded Missile Warhead
Brenodi Fun build:
Heavy Caliber Machine gun
Superheated Material Physics
Plasma Cannon Projectile
Improved Warhead Compounds
Upgraded Missile Warhead
Tracking systems ,
Guided or homing missiles (I strongly prefer UML under chemistry warheads)
Northern Faction CQC:
Improved Warhead compounds
Upgraded missile warhead
Northern Faction Fun build:
Heavy Caliber Machine gun
Overcharged Rail gun
I would get nukes that are under nuclear fission when you are done with the list.
And then level 3 turrets which is under electrical. Basically get whatever the fuck you want after you got those.
I can't help but notice and poke fun at wasting time to get unusable two slot weapons before getting a chassis to mount them on. It's like getting Zerg flier upgrades before getting any fliers. I know it helps bad players to an extent by limiting the amount of resources they can waste at once, but it hampers people who know how to make use of the extra armor plates and basic ML.
Anyway, to actually provide some more content to the thread, here is a list I enjoy for NF. It relies quite heavily on their warcube medium tanks.
Gas Turbine Engine
Medium Tank Chassis
Improved Detonation Compounds
Enhancer Grenadier RPG
APCR Grenadier Missiles
Heavy Tank Chassis
Guiding Signal Boosters
TOW Guided Missiles
Then decide in your heart if the siegebreaker weapon is nukes or the much faster arty, then it's free reign to get personal requests or counters.
I rather people spawn tanks with weapons than being forced to fall back and refit their tanks to get new weapons on them on a repair paid that may or may not exist. I always get weapons first for that exact reason because it gives the enemy team more breathing room if the whole team falls back to refit for weapons.
If the entire frontline runs away to get that refit it's another way of your players showing off their ineptitude. It's marginally better than losing light vehicles to enemies, but still a demonstration of bad skill as knowing when to retreat is a more complex matter than "after you die" or " when new pew pew is get".
I definitely see the merit in this damage control approach of sorts, but ultimately it's not the optimal way.
That is your opinion though on what is optimal, vs facts of the entire team needing to refit their tanks the moment I get them a two slot weapon after I get them meds.
Except they don't all need to do it at once. It's just like with dota style games, you don't instantly recall to your nexus or ancient the moment you hit that right amount of gold to buy the next item, you wait until the coast is clear first. Immediately backing results in those important losses you are talking about.
Two slot cannons and missile launchers being absolutely useless until mediums or heavies are researched is an undeniable fact, though.
Weapons before chassis is about cost efficiency and danger. I know some can make use of a medium tank with double std ml and a std cannon but that increases the chance of losing resources in comparison to fully equiped tanks. Basically, yes it's still an investment, your team will be improved, but the risk (in comparison to what it could be) has increased aswell. On the other hand it can give you a few minutes to push harder, conquer territory and increase your income. I believe the fact that the whole team would have to refit their tanks isn't a big issue. People would go back to repair often anyway. You might get a few moments of vulnerability but once your tanks return it will kind balance itself out I think.
When was the last time you commanded, because this is the exact reason I get weapons before meds. Because this shit was constant. The whole reason I get weapons before med tanks is because my team was fucking retarded enough to do a mass recall.
Weapons before meds, no exceptions. You can use the optimal argument all you want. This is a game where the lowest common denominator will ruin it for everyone. I rather not even deal with the situation of people being unaware on how to refit vehicles. If I had professional players 24/7 I would fucking rush heavies more often. But I don't because the average empires player is a guy who found the game on steam and is going to play it for a few weeks and drop it forever.
@Ranger: This point is, again, showing player ineptitude. Light vehicles don't disappear the moment you research bigger chassis. You can still use them and their different handling and profile, but instead of being railroaded into using them and just them, you can also opt for a meatier option of medium tanks. Some people will do better with lights, most (thanks to their terrible driving skills) will get more of a kick from more hitpoints.
And for the next 3-4 minutes, your team will have the tech advantage in more diverse unit types that require more different approaches to overcome, while the other team can only look at a new icon or two in their vehicle customization screens.
Edit @BigTeef: I am fully aware of what our average player is (in)capable of, which is why I acknowledged that from the get go. It doesn't invalidate the follow up points though - weapons first are a worse decision from a purely theoretical standpoint. Sadly, people make them the better one for a multitude of reasons, the ones we went over among them.
People don't immediately get tanks when they know the chassis is available.
"Oh we have medium" -> "lemme finish my job here" -> "okay I'mma get myself a tank"
When I used to comm I'd research "Projectile Physics" or "Improved Detonation Compounds"(AKA the research before any certain weapon), then go for medium tank, then come back for the actual weapons.
My observation is that people ended up driving tanks with the latest weapons without having to refit, for most of the times.
You don't research of what is optimal, you research what will work for your team. And if my team is bunch of people who don't know how to play. I am going to get compo, advanced coolant, weapons, and then the tanks. Optimal doesn't mean a damn thing when nobody knows what is optimal.
Research appealing to the most brain-dead of teammates has won me more games than this get armor before weapons approach that melirion taught me. Especially when gren upgrades do more damage than meds and is for some reason instant.
I think BigTeed is right. It's just like when you research level 3 turrets because you don't trust your team. It's better to get mediums at their full potential (fully equiped). I mean, both research paths work, it depends on teams, the map, the game, everything. Nothing to argue, I don't think there's a "best option" here. I'm saying he's right because it's safer to get good tanks that require less skill to inflict damage, than to have a tactical advantage that your team may not be able to fully exploit.
Edit: Looks like a safer investment.
Edit: I would still appreciate if some of the tier2 weapon researches gave something for the tier1 weapons. Like an upgrade or new item. That'd be best I think.
If this was scrim, I would get whatever the team leader tells me to get. I would throw out all my fucking builds and get 100% of what he told me to get.
But if its a regular and there are only 10 players on my team. I may get fucking level 3 turrets before I even touch heavies. If it was a pug, I may get UGL for early game pushing. After I get armor and a engine.
You research based on your team is. And if my team is braindead and needs me to hold thier goddamn hand. I am going to get the easiest shit for them to use, and less effort involved tanks.
They could fucking take forever on re-fitting thier tanks and there is a que of 5 of them on the repair pad. And then they are driving and bumping into eachother and fucking fighting for it because they are impatient children, calling each-other retards and then start screaming in voice chat. That whole situation would of not happen if I just fucking ignored Melirions advice on armor before weapons.
That is just one goddamn horror story I had to deal with. My whole approach to this game has been shaped on people mishandling what I give them. This is why I fucking complain so much about ref control. Because lots of money = more forgiving mistakes.
If I have 10k res and somebody looses a heavy tank. Just go get another one. But if sombody looses a heavy tank when we got 1,500 res. I am going to tell him to get a medium tank, be ignored. And he gets a heavy tank to rinse and repeat then bankrupting the team. Telling me to fuck off because I told him so and then quitting the game forever. My mistake was not restricting the VF and forcing him to use what I spawned.
We need more commanders, because they will understand the importance of economy management, and what is best for the team. If that guy who rage quited understood that a medium tank would of been the better choice because for his skill level. He most likely wouldn't of rage quitted and would of been willing to work with me. And the only way for people to learn whats best for the team is being a commander and being that guy that has to figure out how to use the tools of whats given to him. And those tools have minds of their own that you need to appeal too.
Especially when that fucking tool only plays rifleman and ignores the fucking commander because he thinks he knows everything.
The lowest common denominator argument is definitely valid, as the good players will manage to perform at an acceptable level regardless, but the bad ones will have trouble with more advanced mechanics, like vehicle refitting. However, I believe that in this case, it's more important to cater to the highly skilled portion of a team that can use the new tools to great effect in that small time window this would provide. It's particularly visible with NF, where their warcube mediums have 12 plates of armor over light tanks and can easily anchor a frontline and push it head on instead of relying on agility to stay in the fight.
And as Security pointed out, we are talking about a time window that, assuming constant attention to research and timing the VF visit properly, lasts between three and four minutes. Most people won't be able to utilise it, with maybe a couple tanks rolling out with standard weapons. To a random pubber, it will be barely noticeable. To a veteran, it will be a period of dominance.
I have to agree with Destroyer here...
Consider this from a different angle perhaps @BigTeef... What happens if you lose the radar?
I'd rather be left with meds without 2 slot weapons than with 2 slot weapons with no meds.
This is just for the consideration of the optimal strategy. Of course depending on your players, you will probably have a different one.
I build two radars, that is only 1,200. One heavy tank depending on weapons. If I have map control the forward base gets a radar, rax, vf, and repair pads. It becomes a 2nd main base. It's a waste of money yes, but the team doesn't need to kill spawn to main to save me. I just simply relocate to the forward base and adjust the lanes that need to be pushed.
If I do manage to loose the base before we even get close to meds it wont matter because people target vehicle factories because VF's are bigger threat than a radar. We cant build tanks if we don't have cash so me researching stuff will only help the long game not the short game therefor making VF's a more tangible target. You still need to be alive for the long game to matter, and have refs and some map control.
If they are in my base, that means my team is recalling from the front lines to help out main thus giving them room to advance, taking my refs in the process thus bankrupting me. So I can't get tanks until my team pushes back. Nobody is getting a goddamn thing regardless what I researched first. If my team is that bad, I won't even last 10 minutes so I might as well just rush gren upgrades ignoring armor, and get level 3s.
I got no comment on everything else but this.
I always target radar first, not because it's more important than VF, but because radar is like 5 times easier/more guaranteed to destroy.
1: Radar has less HP than VF and far less places for an engi to hide.
2: Unlike VF, there won't be an engi that happen to be inside the radar and deny like half of your damage.
3: This is a little mind-game, when you have killed the radar, enemies usually have reacted with vehicles, you can then switch to their undefended VF. (unless you are alone)
The radar is a higher priority target until heavies get researched. Halting research gives you precious minutes of tech advantage.
If they have two radars then VF is more important.
But hey, CV is more important, it's also much harder to kill.
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