Let me start by saying e-building is an aberration and should not exist. But it has been introduced for a good reason, all classes should be able to build. Building is the base of Empires the very foundation of it (literally), so why give only one class the ability to do it? Proposal #1: the basic solution We give a calculator to all the classes with ONLY the ability to build and repair. It will work like a regular engineer's tool, recharge and builds at the same rate (without repair upgrade). Players will be able to gain points from it. They will no longer be able to build while shooting or to build non-stop for hours. OR Proposal #2: The advanced calculating We give calculators to all classes, with different attributes and skills, take some of that versatility off Engineer for a change. All calculator would have the ability to build, and class specific abilities: Engineer: - Calculator can repair friendly buildings - Calculator can heal friendly units - Calculator can repair friendly tanks - Calculator can place Turrets - Calculator can place Walls - Skill: Repair Upgrade: does not affect tanks anymore - Skill: Healing Upgrade - Skill: Revive Upgrade Grenadier: - Calculator can repair friendly tanks - Calculator can repair friendly walls - Calculator can repair Vehicle Factory too confusing - Calculator can place Walls make grenadier less OP - Calculator is now used to defuse mines - Calculator is now used to detonate (9-mine) mines credit: A-z-K - Skill: Vehicle Repair Upgrade: Same as repair upgrade but only for tanks Rifleman: - Calculator can repair friendly turrets too confusing - Calculator can repair Armories too confusing - Calculator can place Ammo Box. - Skill: Ammo Box Upgrade: Allows riflemen to place 2 ammo boxes. Scout: - Calculator can repair friendly cameras/radars (including the big one) too confusing - Calculator is now used to sabotage buildings - Calculator can place cameras/radars - Skill: Surveillance Upgrade: similar to turret upgrade gives the ability to upgrade cameras/radars This, in my opinion, is what should have been implemented instead of that horrendous e-building. It gives each classes more purpose on the battlefield and improves the need for a balance of classes, no more engineer only teams. (20/04/2016 20h36) EDIT #1: Grenadier Update - Removed Grenadier building walls. - Grenadier "9-mine" added to calculator (20/04/2016 21h03) EDIT #2: too confusing - Removed Classes abilities to repair certain buildings, only engineer can repair now, because it was too confusing (18/04/2017) EDIT #3: The Reproposing! - Seperating into two proposal, simple and complex.
This is the best suggestion I've ever seen. In particular, I like: -All classes can build -Scout places upgradeable cameras/radars - this could be major as a fully upgraded camera could have significant impact on a skirmish -Engineers no longer build cameras/radars (or place ammo?); this frees up the interface so I can more easily add a "recycle walls" item What I don't like: -Some classes can repair some buildings; lots of people are going to be frustrated that their "calc doesn't work", I would much rather make only engineer able to repair all buildings - or all classes can repair all buildings - or even that the former is default and the latter researchable. -Grens can place walls; I think it makes a class that is already a strong choice rather overpowered.
Yeah I'm also afraid this might be the case, but it's just a matter of learning. Research sounds like a good idea. I just wanted to give them something to build really, but you're right I'm already concerned they would become the "end-game" class as they're already the best tank-driving class, giving them a calculator that repairs vehicle might take that even further. Of course there's only so much that can be done without entirely removing classes and turning skills into "technologies".
I dunno, a lot of the skills you suggest I dislike a lot. Greens become able to ride around with no need for an engineer, riflemen no longer need am engineer for an ammo box. Why bother staying with your squad. In an ideal world engineers become strong squad leaders that are indispensable and a force multiplier, the rest of the squad deals the damage. The perfect squad is 2 engineers, scout, gren and rifle. With interplay between the whole bunch. I'm not saying don't give other classes something, but this feels like we'd not need engineers at all and it's been the mainstay for a long time. Better get rid of classes altogether and go with a path based upgrade system instead if that's the feeling
How would you make it so Grenadiers aren't too strong tank drivers? They already are to be honest. They would still have to go back for ammo, so it doesn't change much, right now it's go back for ammo + repair, it'd change into go back for ammo. Since we're talking "perfect" squad, you wouldn't last long without revives, heals and walls. Engineer is still basically the medic, so they're still 100% required. And if you're talking about running around gunning everything as a rifleman, well they usually take ammo upgrade so they die before they run out of ammos, all it'd do is save them one upgrade slot. I don't disagree that it would change the approach of certain situations, but in the end the perfect squad remains 2 engineers, 1 scout 1 gren 1 rifle. Unless you can give me an example in which engineers would not be needed. and like all the ideas I have been posting recently, it's supposed to be something simple enough so that the current dev team can implement it without problems. as I said ultimately I believe it would be better to remove classes altogether but it would require a lot of work. Like e-build, this is, in my mind, a temporary fix.
Hmm.. Fair point. Food for thought. Walls need to remain the preserve of the engineer though I think. Also sort out 9 mines, make right click / wep4 a remote detonator so it doesn't look so fucky.
so, right click calculator would show an option "detonate mines"? That's cool, I like it! Edit: actually since they don't have anything to build just right click would do it so they don't have to open any GUI.
To be honest, e-build is pretty much a calculator for all classes already (especially since it repairs now) My problem with the suggestion is pretty much what Tama said, that people will complain that their calculator doesnt work. It seems very unintuitive and confusing to learn what class can do which kind of calculator skill. I honestly think if i started playing now it would take me a year to figure it out for good. Scouts placing cameras/radars is a step towards making them useful, but its such a passive skill (weak health and doesnt give points). I wonder if people will just forgo cameras instead of playing scout. and i dont believe 2 engys 1 scout 1 rifle 1 gren is a perfect squad. scout cant do anything unless they are in a base, and then they are probably too far out of the squad radius to get squad points.
Yes but e-build comes out of nowhere, doesn't give point, doesn't have a recharge time, it's just bad. Don't you think? Okay let's forget the whole different classes able to repair different buildings then. I mean Engineer would still be able to repair everything, the other classes being able to repair certain buildings was just a bonus... But okay. Do you really think people would abandon camera altogether? Truth is you might be right, but it's worth a try, isn't it? Well the point was, you'll always need 2 engineers, as for the rest of the squad, depends what you're doing, scout can sticky stun tanks attacking you. But yeah most of the time it'll be without scouts.
if you forget the repairing buildings thing, people will still be confused by the calculators since they'll all be the same model. people will think they do the same thing. alot of the suggestions seem to be just reclassifying already existing skills into the calculator (defuse, sabotage, 9mine). the only other 2 are the rifleman abilities. armories are too big to be placed by a class. and riflemen placing ammo is a little crazy. think of sticky bombs. think of those riflemen who dont die. maybe scouts can have some sort of recon/gps device that places camera/see enemies (isnt that what the binocs were supposed to do anyways) im not opposed to scouts having camera placement ability. im just pointing out the possible outcome. its well worth a try.
I believe scouts should have assault weapons. It would have the role of a roflman in the squad plus scout stuff. He would be a more valuable member of a squad.
I was thinking mines secondary fire could be to blow the first in the sequence. Might prove a bit Op though. I just hate dropping the 9to mine. It's a bit silly as a mechanic to blow up the first one. How would you figure dropping a 9th mine would blow the first. Bit yes, that could work just as well.
since theres no poll, you need to read my opinion. the intention behind this suggestion is great, yet i think its too much of a change to find broad acceptance (forum discussions aside). and its exactly that what will make it fail in the end. a lot of bold attempts at changing the game failed exaclty because of that. if there isnt a certain continuity people start to act weird and start petition to remove the evil despot who killed the game forever ... ... maybe more in pieces?
I kinda like how I can hide behind buildings/walls and shoot things while keeping said building/wall up, e repair/build is pretty nice, especially after candles buffed ebuild by a bit. I will say it makes no sense the calc can't repair if it can build, all classes need to do both. I don't think ammo for rifle is a good fit, it's not bad but I'd rather something else. This is partially because being that solo engy taking down refs and things would be more annoying without being able to drop ammo yourself. I guess teamplay and all that, but that kind of team play hurts low pop a lot.I almost, almost, want to say rifle can just heal too, possibly get that heal upgrade?, but not revive. It isn't like they can heal themselves after all, so it isn't like this makes them op in anyway. Grens also odd, cause of how damn strong it is at all stages in the game. Part of me wonders if some of these skill things, like how gren can repair vehicles, shouldn't be a default ability but one they get with a skill slot. Actually that'd be nice in general, calculator has it's own special loadout slots and you can choose extra things it can do not inherent to the class, but that's out of scope and probably just complicating things. Maybe gren should be getting that repair upgrade just for buildings and engy gets one that works on both buildings and tanks, I dunno. Like sure the engineer is pretty awesome, but it's simply not as good against other infantry or even tanks compared to other classes, so it always made sense engy had so much utility. Mixed feelings on scout having camera, it's a sensible addition to it but half the scouts aren't really close to team to make use of camera and so the lack of cameras in general mean the commander getting spammed more for targets, and that's really really annoying. But the notion of not always having a little diamond on you is also nice. Just saying everyone getting a calc is good idea, but what everything can do needs some fine tuning.
This isn't a terrible reworking, but I have some extremely salient concerns. The first is, engineers really kind of rely on their seismic spam ability to take down buildings. I literally can't overstate this. It might be a crappy mechanic, but like a lot of things in Empires which should be crappy, somehow they end up adding something important to the mix. [The CV is a good example of this - it's not a great thing to have your team reliant on not only one person to command them, but also a person with the most important piece of equipment in the game, too...and yet without the CV, you don't have Empires.] The second thing, which ties into the first, is that riflemen aren't generally that support orientated, so giving them infinite ammo will most likely make them more lone-rangery. This is most probably going to make taking down buildings a lot more about explosive nade spam (which is much worse than seismic spam), and also mean that rifleman are going to be the go-to class for most engagements. Why? Because a rifleman has more survivability in gunfights, and with infinite ammo they won't need to stick by the team so much. Engineer will be replaced in many combats by default. This isn't a problem, except at the same time, you're removing one of the most engaging things about the class, and it's primary offensive role. Engineers are not just builders, but also sappers. It might just be nadespam, but there's a whole range of things to do to take down a building, especially if it's a barracks. It makes engineers really key to the whole offense. Riflemen having little to no building damage abilities is a concern, but I'd rather you take away (or tone down) engineers ability to decon and give an expanded version to other classes, than remove their seismic spam. Or alternatively to all of that, swap rifleman's explosive grenade for the seismic. Though that might be imprudent, since then engineers will be able to to indirectly attack enemies, which is the class's one weak point. I don't want to say a simple breakdown doesn't work, but it looks that way. I'd actually rather expand rifleman's supportive ability through heals, rather than give them ammo boxes. I'd also say that although this is supposed to be a simple workaround, as Complete said, I think it'd be pretty confusing to have a the same calculator that for some classes repairs tanks, and some doesn't. That some heals people, and some don't. And unfortunately I don't think this is something just fixed with a description, but rather if you'd had icons on the actual model or in game X-out reminders when you tried to heal/repair something you couldn't. Which kinda turns this unsimple. I will say I always wanted to see scout with some healing ability, and I do not mind at all that they have the surveillance equipment - since it makes perfect sense. I also think squad auras should be rotated to distribute things a little more evenly. Riflemen typically have no support abilities, so it'd be great to have the squad regen aura working on a rifleman leader, instead of a engineer who will most likely be running around healing (or reviving) her squad. Some other things don't seem quite right, but overall I want to say this is a thing that should have been realised a long time ago...I just think it needs more work to get it right.
You're absolutely right it needs some work, some tuning, which is why I'm glad we're getting so much constructive criticism, hopefully we'll be able to come up with something most of us can agree on.
