Beerdude's researchoverview (zooming)

Beerdude has been working on a zoomable research tree overview. And we were sort of discussing possible ways to expand this idea into a new and well thought out research tree that fits Empires the best.

Right now, his research tree has zooming and dragging functionality. As shown in the screenshot below, it draws lines between research items, and shows complete paths in this fashion:



While there are a lot of possible functionalities, this thread is not about general research suggestions, so please don't start suggesting general research things.

I've compiled 3 possible research-overview layouts, and would like some feedback and input on them:

Modular layout:


Hierarchical layout:


Combi layout:



This thread doesn't mean anything will get implemented, thats up to beerdude, I basically want to have a discussion thread, to improve the layout concept and possibly make some conclusions on what works best.

I'm not sure if the modular one is easy to understand, but I can explain it if it is required.

 

+1




...... +1 some more....

 

Let the grown-ups discuss things dear

 

To be honest? I almost like the system we have now. Display full paths for a tree. Click on a branch. Branch opens to display stems. Click on a stem. Stem opens to display twigs. Twigs can then open to display leaves.

This way it doesn't take up too much space (INFORMATION_OVERLOAD), and infoboxes can exist. Obviously recolouring/shape redesigning can be done, but I like the click->zoom system.

 

agree with predom, this system is too cluttered and inefficient. empires research doesnt branch out enough for this to be useful.

 

future research might

 

The modular system (first pic) is the system we have now, its an adoption that incorporates zooming and hierarchy. So its a general improvement. With the only difference that more information is visible on the screen. However, if the default zoom level of it is the 2nd tier (electric, bio, chemistry etc options) it would be exactly the same as our current system. Except that you would have the possibility to zoom out one level to see the layout as it is on the screenshot.

 

Except all researches are viewable from the get-go. How it is /currently/ (unless the tree has change since I played last..?) is more of an exploratory tree, and works well with any number of researches (until you get into greater than 4-5 tiers..but I don't see Empires ever reaching that).

**Unless, of course, zooming out from the current tree reveals that. I might be acting a bit redundant, not sure.

 

Well if I understand you correctly, you prefer the current system because of simplicity. Which raises a good point.

The way you've worded it is a bit redundant however as the modular system basically is the one you prefer.

 

its a wireframe, not how it will look in the game. That's basically the 2nd tier (or first I guess if you don't count the root), so it could have text there saying "Mechanical" etc.

The hovering is already implemented by Beerdude, however, the con "no info" means there is no ability to put information in the layout, in the case of the combi layout, there is no space for individual item information.

It's a con of all 3, and I believe even current Empires. I noted it because someone could come up with a system that does allow you to view info of every single item, I just didn't come up with it because I don't think its very important. However, I do believe its important to have some sort of information on the screen. Where hovering simply wouldn't be good enough.

The hierarchical layout suffers from this problem the most, because it requires a lot of space to have all paths expanded, there is far less space to work with, compared to the other 2.

 

I like the first and the third.

Having to click button after button to get to a certain research gets rather tedious, and is unnecessary even if this system could be added. The problem I have with the current system is that I cannot put technologies/researches in a queue, thus increasing the research time a bit. I don't see how the proposed systems are cluttered; to be exact, I find the proposals to be more streamlined then the system we have now. The third system is actualy something I wanted to propose for a long term, and of all looks the most streamlined to me.

EDIT: Edited for the sake of readability.

 

I quite liked the first picture. Nice overview. I might start commanding if this gets implemented. :D

 

have tabs for the different trees (physics, chem, bio etc...) then there you show the tree. this way of showing the whole research thingy is too cluttery, and also have it like a left to right thing. I'm thinking like the type you see in age of empires.

 

19:24 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: looking at that thread
19:25 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: from the perspective of someone who would actually have to do the research for this shit
19:25 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: I wanna throw a few things in here
19:25 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: firstlyt
19:25 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: firstly
19:25 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: it's important that I can have dual pre-requesite research
19:25 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: if you can somehow link 2 researches, regardless of the tree they're in, that's a bonus, but being able to link 2 in the same tree is ideal
193 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: linking in same tree is prolly trivial
193 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: dizzy is just going
193 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: "I don't really think we need dual pre-reqs"
193 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: I take offence.
194 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: I know I'm not coding it, nor am I helping design it, but I still have to implement the usage of it, and I'd rather not be arbitarily limited because one person didn't think something I wanted to use was really needed
194 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: especially something that's been discussed for so long
195 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: regardless of whether or not it would benefit the game, that's entirely irrelevant in my opinion
195 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: because it's not something that could be decided without testing, and to test it, it needs to be an option
195 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: Well that's his opinion
195 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: And his designs don't really hold against dual pre-reqs
195 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: they make it a bit more difficult
196 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: i also said I'd rather still not be limited to 6 researches either
196 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: Yeah I was wondering about that too
196 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: I wonder how many researches you want to put in then :p
196 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: well
196 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: also having them next to eachother can be confusing for new players
197 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: in terms of displaying them all on screen at the same time
197 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: if you start merging lots of hexagons together
197 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: it looks like a mush
197 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: you can't see the paths or the centre
198 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: basically
198 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: if you want to display it all at the same time
198 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: if your 2nd level has any more than 3 options
198 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: which, all of ours do
198 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: then it starts to mush together
198 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: you start connecting to shit you don't want to connect to
199 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: if you connect it by lines then using hexagons is pointless in the firstp lace
199 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: Well the tree would be laid out differently if we would keep the current implementation
19:41 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: out of the 3 pictures
19:41 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: the first one is cool but having pre-requesites would really start to get messy with lines
19:41 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: so a solution to that is a button to show said lines
19:41 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: that can be turned off
19:41 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: a toggle
19:41 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: the 2nd one is basically the current design
19:41 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: only you can zoom out
19:42 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: but again my point stands about how many researches you can have there
19:42 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: it would start to get cluttered very quickly
19:42 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: 3rd one is shitty for the most part but the top right part of it with the circle that almost looks like a human nervous system, that's interesting
19:42 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: You could also just have an info box that shows exactly what you need to get a certain resarch
19:42 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: yeah ofc, and hovering over it not only shows the info, but it makes a line appear to the other research
19:43 - =[BSID]= 1LT Beerdude26: Yeah possibly
19:43 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: but having a button you can press would help people visualise where they want to go more, but it wouldn't be used by newbie comms, allowing a smoother learning curve
19:43 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: so really imo
19:43 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: first one and the top right of the 3rd one
19:43 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: middle one just has the same hexagon problems
19:43 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: look at the 2nd group on the 2nd picture
19:43 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: like
19:43 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: anything outside of the starting researches
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: if you wanted to add anything further than the 6 in the 2nd group
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: it would get really really messy
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: or rather
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: even worse if you wanted to add more than 2
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: so say you went
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: chem
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: then improved det
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: then upgraded nades and HE
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: as it is now
19:44 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: that would get really messy in this tree
19:45 - -₪EPIC₪- Trickster |CiC.|: one of those 2 researches would either be connecting to HEMG or UML

Too lazy to retype that as a proper reply.

 

I'm not sure if you noticed flasche, but none of those pictures actually have the full research tree displayed. The other thing that takes up a lot of space is the way they have to be layed out, since its a hierarchy, they need space to be seperated for better readability. Look at the first ingame screenshot, and look at the 4th research tier. Tell me if you can tell which research belongs to which, without having to follow the lines for each item. It takes up a lot of space. The items are also very small, while that might not matter to you, from a usability point of view, they should be as big as possible, which also takes up more space.

Comparitively they take up more space which I've noted as a con, don't see what's wrong with that, its true afterall.

There is a lot of info and meta data that could be displayed, how much is displayable depends on the space we can work with. I can't really do much with your comment that you can't see what info is needed, since I can. It's all comparative, one layout allows for extra info, the other simply makes it harder to do so.


@ trickster

The first isn't restricted to 6 necessarily. For simplicity it's better to restrict to 6, but you have to imagine the black hexagons as a branch group, if the branch consists of more than 6, there would either be ngons or multiple hexagons with items. Just like a fractal, the amount of info that is displayed is dependent on the zoom level. Other than that, I can't be bothered to read a text wall either. That's how I roll.

 

As I said, my point was that using hexagons is pointless (as opposed to using circles for example) if you're not going to tessellate them. And you can't tessellate them if you're going to do an overview rather than the current system, because they'll start to mesh together.

 

One could use squares instead and use a scrollable research tree. I tried to make a concept, but when using hexagons it quickly get's cluttered and I don't think it will look that pretty to most people in game.

While I like hexagons a solution could be squares with nice icons. You could also use something like this:



If you use square icons instead and make it look nice then I would preffer that anytime over the current system.

(I am glad someone is revising the research system)

 

hmm I guess that one will work pretty well