[Balance Suggestion] A Host of Tweaks

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Demented, Nov 18, 2009.

  1. Demented

    Demented Member

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    Not all balance changes need to be complete overhauls, here's a list of tweaks that'll generally keep what we already have, but presumably with better balancing.
    ___ _ ___

    Reflective angle modifier decreased to 0.5 from 1.

    Chemistry research time decreased to 60 from 90.
    Electrical research time decreased to 60 from 90.
    Biology research time decreased to 60 from 90.

    Absorbant research time increased to 120 from 90.
    Advanced Magnet Research research time increased to 120 from 90.

    Regenerative Armor research time decreased to 150 from 180.
    Bio Diesel Engine research time increased to 90 from 60.

    Bio Diesel (light tank/afv) speed increased to 38 from 35.
    Bio Diesel (medium tank) speed increased to 37 from 36.

    Gas Turbine Engine (light tank/afv) speed increased to 42 from 40.
    Gas Turbine Engine (heavy tank) speed increased to 36 from 32.

    Standard MG damage decreased to 30 from 40.
    Standard MG minimum damage decreased to 24 from 32.
    Standard MG spread increased to 0.02 from 0.012.
    Standard MG reload time increased to 4 seconds from 2 seconds.

    Plasma MG weight decreased to 50 from 70.
    Plasma MG damage increased to 3 from 1.
    Plasma MG cost decreased to 90 from 100.

    Bio ML damage increased to 70 from 50.
    Bio ML cycle time decreased to 2.0 seconds from 3.0.
    Bio ML radius decreased to 250 from 300.

    Homing ML lock range modifier decreased to 0.0003 from 0.000805.
    Upg. Homing ML missile ranged increased to 12000 from 10000.
    Upg. Homing ML lock range modifier decreased to 0.0002 from 0.000805.
    Salvo Homing ML lock range modifier decreased to 0.0004 from 0.000935.
    ___ _ ___

    I'll explain the madness logic behind the changes as they're discussed, but seeing your initial reactions will probably prove valuable.
     
  2. pickled_heretic

    pickled_heretic Member

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    Stopped reading
     
  3. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    he just moved 30seconds from the overall research from chem to the armor - im still up to figure out what the big plan behind all this is.

    maybe short descriptions would help a bit?
     
  4. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    Agreed on almost everything. Things I don't agree with:

    Absorbant research time increased to 120 from 90.
    - Needs a counterbalance. Decrease it's cost at the very least.

    Bio Diesel (light tank/afv) speed increased to 38 from 35.
    Bio Diesel (medium tank) speed increased to 37 from 36.
    - With the improved Plasma MG, I wouldn't increase the speed.

    Standard MG damage decreased to 30 from 40.
    Standard MG minimum damage decreased to 24 from 32.
    Standard MG spread increased to 0.02 from 0.012.
    Standard MG reload time increased to 4 seconds from 2 seconds.
    - Okay-ish for the most part but a bit too much IMHO. Could be offset with reduced weight?
     
  5. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    You nerfed absorbant more.

    You gave pointless buffs to the engines that won't be noticed.

    You nerfed BioML damage, yet spread more aids which quite frankly, is gay.

    You did something other than removing plasma.

    No fucking idea what you did with the homing MLs.

    They're little changes for a greater problem if I'm honest. Little balances like this (which arguably aren't balanced) won't help like little changes to infantry weapons will.

    We need more variety. Even with your changes, I'd still go physics every round.
     
  6. Demented

    Demented Member

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    @flasche
    The research changes make it so that you get your armor at a generally similar time, and also make it easier to dip into them for most equipment (but notably not absorbant, 3phase, or railguns, which are already quick). On the presumption that not everyone will be going Physicsâ–şReflective, it may also help that the armors are now much closer to eachother in total ETA. Absorbant still arrives 30s earlier than the rest.

    @Snowdrake
    -Absorbant: I could reduce the cost; it does seem a bit pricy. I hadn't considered changing research costs. I'll just have to make more spreadsheets first.
    -Bio Diesel: I can only presume that you're thinking that Bio Diesel + plasma MG will in some way be a good combination. Everything I know about the engines (and Bio Diesel in particular) and Plasma MG assures me that this is impossible.
    -Standard MG: Honestly? I do think I overnerfed it. The thought makes me giddy. ;)

    @Trickster
    It seems I'll have to adopt a different method of displaying balance changes.

    How does this look:

    Bio ML Damage
    Old: 50, New: 70
     
  7. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    All of this is done to nerf physics? Could work. I say OK.

    This will be the result, if you change the angle modifier.
    Current:
    NF Std. Canon damage 19 to 37
    ML damage 19 to 38

    New:
    NF Std. Canon damage 28 to 37
    ML damage 29 to 38

    Just use this table to check other values:
    http://wiki.empiresmod.com/index.php?title=Image:Armor_weapon2.24.gif
    (Angle modifier is divided by 2 to have an average modifier)


    This has been done to balance the shorter top tree research times?
    Absorbant=NOK
    Advanced Magnet Research=Ok
    Regenerative Armor=NOK
    Bio Diesel Engine=NOK


    66% more spread will make this MG useless. And because I make most of my kills as tank driver with Std. MG and Std. Canon I don't like this.

    Some values seems to be the same to my suggestion:
    http://forums.empiresmod.com/showthread.php?t=11043
    So I like this.

    For the rest of the changes I don't care.
     
  8. PreDominance

    PreDominance Member

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    As SIP said.
    Absorbant really only has two niches; Chemistry rushing and Rails. Better to leave it as it is.
    However, delaying the game's best (IMHO, anyways) cannon isn't a bad idea.
    The engine really isn't that great. Maybe to 75 seconds or something, but I see no major reason to nerf it.
    +1 for helping Regen.
    Sure.
    GT is supposed to be a rather slower engine, but one with more horsepower. I guess it's alright.
    I agree with a damamge reduction, but leave the spread as it is.
    Agreed. The major issue is that it's most effective on APC's, because with the plasma MG on a tank shooting cannons, there's too much heat output.
    BioML really doesn't need to be fired fast -- cycle time shouldn't matter much. Radius on it is a good thing though, it helps with infantry. Damage isn't all-too-important either, because the main damage it does is with the poison.

    ___ _ ___

    I'll explain the madness logic behind the changes as they're discussed, but seeing your initial reactions will probably prove valuable.[/quote]
     
  9. Trickster

    Trickster Retired Developer

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    It's not the display method, or the changes.

    The fact of the matter is, the Research tree LAYOUT is fucked up at the moment. That is the biggest problem. You cannot balance this shit without changing that.
     
  10. Demented

    Demented Member

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    @SIP
    -Regen/Bio: Any particular reason you don't like the research time changes?

    @Shadow187
    -Absorbant: Leaving it as is but keeping the other changes would mean you get Abs 60 seconds before any other armor instead of 30 seconds, as well as making a chemistry rush that much faster. Admittedly, you'd probably just make enemy grenadiers happy for 60 seconds, but does that truly compensate for the extra time or is it just sloppy balancing?
    -Bio Diesel: It's only a nerf if you're dipping into biology to get diesel. As with Abs, leaving it as is means you get it 90 seconds earlier than any other engine, rather than 60 seconds. (Though engines are perhaps a little less critical than armor.)

    @Trickster
    This thread is an attempt to keep the changes as minimal as possible. (It's hard to resist the temptation... braaaiiinnss...) Short term testing would at least be feasible for these changes. If you want tort total reform, I am sure someone somewhere has suggested something.
     
  11. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    My reason why I don't like the change to the Bio-Diesel engine due to the improved Plasma MG is that I think the PMG would see more use, and as such, the Bio-Diesel is already the best counter against that because you cannot effectively get shut down.

    If you make the Bio-Diesel engine too nice, improving the PMG will not help. If the counter is attractive enough to be researched without incentive, the weapon loses a lot of it's appeal.
     
  12. Empty

    Empty Member

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    You can't shoot.
     
  13. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    But you can move.
     
  14. -=SIP=-

    -=SIP=- Member

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    I didn't notice the "decreased" for regen armor. Therefore I change my posting.
    Regenerative Armor=OK

    In my opinion current bio tech tree could need a small buff, because you have no weapons for heavy tanks. With decreased research times for bio diesel and regen armor, it's easier to switch later to chemistry or electrical.

    What I miss in bio tech tree is a cannon. For NF you can start with every tree. But there is just no reason why to start with bio as BE.


    But in general I like your balance suggestion. I would only add these points:
    HE Canon Heat decreased to 18 from 22
    (you can't use the full damage per second even when you have coolant engine)

    Remove plasma cannon and plasma MG, because we will never find the correct balance for this. Current plasma is useless. And effective plasma will lead to lame game play. Nobody likes to sit in an overheated tank.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2009
  15. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    What about adding a biocannon that slowly regenerates ammo?
     
  16. PreDominance

    PreDominance Member

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    BioDiesel engine should slowly regener-

    Nvm.

    SnowDrake, we have an MG and and ML for bio. Cannons are meant to be shot repeatedly, therefore negating the common, "Hit-Run" tactic of bio.
     
  17. SnowDrakE

    SnowDrakE Member

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    So... give it only 5 shots which slowly regenerate.

    Underpowered but technically unlimited ammo. But will give cannonusers something to toy around with.

    More importantly, it will allow non-engineers to operate independently from a repairpad for extended periods of time. The reason why noone really uses the other classes as tankdrivers, even though you can get more armor or weapon damage is they are not self-sufficient.
     
  18. Demented

    Demented Member

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    @SIP
    -Regen: See, this is why I need to find a different method of displaying balance changes! Pity, it works in blizzard's changelogs. (Though they do use 'reduced' instead of 'decreased'.)
    -Bio: Hence the Bio ML buff. It may reduce bio drain's use as a hit and run weapon, but I've rarely seen it used that way and it's not really powerful enough to be anything more than supplemental damage. I did want to add a cannon or some other weapon for biology, but that's not really what this changelog is for.
    -HE CN: You should already be able to max out one HE cannon on adv. coolant... Ranged CN is just miles away in heat efficiency though; I suppose it does need to be looked at.
    -Plasma: You may be able to convince a dev to remove plasma, and all the more power to you if you do, but, for my part, I will never remove plasma! :o
     
  19. Empty

    Empty Member

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    If bio does heat damage, it can be a highly efficient tool for locking down vehicles, if scripted right.
     

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