Are mines too powerful against infantry?

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Sgt.Security, Mar 24, 2016.

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What to do with mines?

  1. Mines should deal 85 damage to infantry

  2. Mines should deal 105 damage to infantry

  3. Mines should deal 150 damage to infantry (current)

  4. Mines should force you prone until healed if they do not kill

  5. Split mines into infantry and tank mines

  6. Keep mines as one weapon

  7. Mines should deal 10% more damage to tanks

  8. Mines are perfectly fine versus tanks now, thank you very much

Multiple votes are allowed.
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  1. PredatoR[HUN]

    PredatoR[HUN] Member

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    I think everyone can agree that dying to mines as infantry is frustrating, especially for newer players. For me personally, the frustration comes mainly when I die from somebody else stepping on them and from those people who run into a rax to drop mines and get easy kills. I do like this idea mainly because it would force grenadiers to actively watch over their mines so they can follow up and finish of the people who step on them but it wouldn't fix the other sources of frustration, the bigger explosion radius would just make it more annoying, it's already pretty big.

    What I would suggest instead is to nerf it to so it does 105 damage to infantry(So you live if you have health upgrade) and nerf the explosion radius instead to a point where only the guy who steps on it will die to it. That way it's still just as good against tanks but it would reduce the frustration to infantry.
     
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  2. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    I gotta say its quite true that damage radius/splash of mines is quite huge.

    But then also that gives opportunities for the vehicles Iam fighting with to drive over them to kill me, while Iam fighting them with the help of mines. xD
    But thats just the tiny thing :P

    But that can sometimes be quite a big range.

    EDIT: Reducing splash range would also make the mines not explode other mines nearby, so that would be one thing to think about if adjusting it.
     
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  3. chernobog

    chernobog Member

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    I was always annoyed of a mine activating other mines when they are like a meter or more far away from each other since it doesn't make sense by design as mines are designed for explosion and kinetic force going upwards.
     
  4. Tama

    Tama Developer Staff Member Web Developer

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    I want to add a poll with multiple votes allowed to establish where everyone stands on the issues discussed. I'm thinking of these options, correct me if I've missed something:

    -Mines should deal 85 damage to infantry
    -Mines should deal 105 damage to infantry
    -Mines should deal 130 damage to infantry
    -Mines should force you prone until healed if they do not kill
    -Split mines into infantry and tank mines
    -Keep mines as one weapon
    -Mines should deal 10% more damage to tanks
    -3 mines should kill a heavy
    -Mines are perfectly fine versus tanks now, thank you very much
    -Decrease mine explosion radius, so that your teammate's stupidity doesn't kill you so often
    -Increase mine explosion radius, so that enemy tanks can kill you more easily with your own mine
    -Keep mine explosion radius as-is
     
  5. Xyaminou

    Xyaminou Member

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    -Mines should deal 105 damage to infantry
    -Split mines into infantry and tank mines
    -Mines are perfectly fine versus tanks now, thank you very much
    -Keep mine explosion radius as-is
     
  6. chernobog

    chernobog Member

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    -Mines should deal 130 damage to infantry
    -Mines should force you prone until healed if they do not kill
    -Split mines into infantry and tank mines
    -Mines should deal 10% more damage to tanks
    -3 mines should kill a heavy
    -Decrease mine explosion radius, so that your teammate's stupidity doesn't kill you so often

    As I said before, mines are designed for explosion to go upwards, its not a hand grenade... Please remember.
     
  7. Smithy

    Smithy Developer Staff Member Administrator

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    Just for some clarification, mines currently deal 300 damage if triggered by a vehicle (before resists). All other triggers cause them to deal 150 damage (before resists).
    So IIRC if you have a lot of mines close together and it is a vehicle that triggers them; the first mine in the stack deals double damage and the rest do the standard 150.

    If the solution is to split mines into two weapons, they need to look and function different imo.
     
  8. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    If I am nerfing mine's anti-infantry power by that much(no more 1-hit kill), it deserves to be a little better at anti-vehicle.
    Simple concept.

    Of course mines CAN not be drop-and-forget, I am just saying mines are being used as drop-and-forget like 80% of the time, that's general cases.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  9. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Thank you smithy for that explanation, now it all makes sense.
     
  10. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    Allright, its your choice. Iam just saying what I think.
    But have you considered only upping the damage to heavies and maybe (but probably not) meds?

    Even if we talk about "plant and forget". Personally I would say its almost pointless to try to use them "with you" as I said, until it gets into the good meds or mostly heavies phase, or you use small non killing stacks against some better tanks. I would say mines act as executor for pretty much anything below meds, especially because you dont just use 1 stacks.
    Its mostly with heavies when you are quite forced to use them with you...well unless you just 8 mine, but thats just single kill or single huge damage, I prefer to use that rarely in rather special situations. As I consider it rather not very effective in usual battle.

    Just to say.
    I pretty much start with 1 stacks. When light tanks with armor appear I start doing more of 2 or so stacks. I somewhat dont exceed 2/3/4 stacks with meds.
    And with heavies I usually just go 6 max, but that really depends on the environment, number of tanks/population and such, I mostly prefer 4-4 if heavies are quite powerful. But If I got many teammates with me and there are loads of enemy tanks I prefer smaller stacks even for heavies, mostly because....well I dont mind dealing a damage to a tank and teammates finishing. Its a team game after all. But also even just tank retreating because of mines, can make a difference. Or hell, few tanks because you used smaller stacks. (and yes, many people get scared when hitting mines too and panic)
    I think many people just too much expect to get kills, and they get no pleasure from dealing damage. But damaging the tank/s and not killing it, can also make quite huge tactical differences. Even though it can feel quite dissapointing.
    ( And Iam just too lucky and usually get the kill too anyway somehow xD )
    So, should it really be about getting a kill or just making a difference? Difference that gives opportunities for you or your mates. But yeah, thats a thing that depends on the individual and how he sees team games. And yeah, many people dont see it this way.

    Dunno I would just rather see mines as tactical kind of thing, rather than poisoning and killing everyone who decides to eat them.
    Even though most of the times right now, they are not like this....like how I like them. But as I said, when it gets to tough vehicles, the mines rather stop acting as executor, or when you do smaller not killing stacks.
    And thats when I like them the most, because its not just simple plant and get a kill.
    But, yes....thats me loving difficult mechanics that give you space to think about "HOW TO DO IT BETTER?"

    Just saying xD

    EDIT: by the way, I changed my mines playstyle quite a lot since we got much more vehicles, just to add. Back then, you didnt have so many tanks to fight against, so it was fine to just focus on one. But since we got quite overwhelming number of vehicles, it can be better to use them differently.
     
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2016
  11. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    -Mines should deal 130 damage to infantry
    -Split mines into infantry and tank mines
    -Mines are perfectly fine versus tanks now, thank you very much
    -Decrease mine explosion radius, so that your teammate's stupidity doesn't kill you so often

    Tank mines would just make the difference, as Neoony said, faster because a tank mine could deal the damage of 3 or 4. It would also stop jeeps and infantry stepping and driving on them on purpose to defuse them and get revived after, clearing a minefield quickly (I blame TheCreeper). I don't like this kind of gameplay, it feels like exploiting to me. As tank mines are larger in size the mine limit should be decreased. I suppose 4 with ammo upgrade is good enough?
     
  12. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I know in battlefield mines could only explode if a vehicle ran over them. Maybe it would be nice if our mines only explode if a tank runs over them? That way you don't have infantry or jeeps defusing things. This would make more sense if someone actually split anti inf and anti tank capabilities.

    I personally don't like how a gren can have up to 8 chances to blow up infantry that walk into a building or whatever, that's a bit nonsensical. If we did keep mines as they are I would kinda vote to be able nerf max mines to 4, increase drop time to what it takes to drop 2(so it takes the same amount of time to mine up an area as if you dropped 8 mines), and double tank damage, or as smithy pointed out maybe just increase damage 1.5 times because that is how much damage 2 mines do to a tank. I guess it's a nerf to people who want or like doing large minefields, there is no pleasing everyone when it comes to mines.
     
  13. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    I don't play so blah blah whatever, But, mines at 85 health damage seems like a good idea. Sure in the past it's been a really good way to bolster defenses and works very well to help fortify an area, but taking 100% of the health and doing damage to any of your comrades nearby seems bit of an overkill.

    What really would be awesome is if they no longer could be laid in the barracks, but at least a not instant kill would lessen the kind abuse of it all round.
     
  14. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    Iam not sure if It would be better to have half the limit of mines.
    Just simply because with 8 you can adjust the damage according to the phase the game is in and what are you fighting against as I described in above post. That is only for vehicles.
    It gives much more options, or possibilities for options.
     
  15. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Right, and I agree with that. It's just mines are stuck being anti inf too and people really shouldn't be able to spam them everywhere. Tanks can eat mines so it makes sense for a gren to have up to 8, it makes no sense when infantry can't eat mines, even if they do look like delicious cookies.
     
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  16. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    why not be consequent? make them useful but only triggerable by vehicles. but this also means you need to touch defusal, because defusal is what makes mines shit against vehicles.
    it really wouldnt hurt to deny vehicles more or less completely free movement - i mean given any upgraded armor that can take some ml-turret hits and maybe more important a somewhat decent engine its no big deal to drive pretty much anything anywhere except for on the most chokepointy maps.
    i never thought this is great for gameplay. dont get me wrong, getting a vehicle behind the enemy lines is awesome, but its no real archievement in empires, more a matter of the right equipment (which is more or less any upgraded vehicle, i just voice it so vague because theres exceptions and i dont want to argue about exceptions).
    but what is worse is that it breaks frontlines. theres a point in the game - usually when meds are done - when frontlines disappear and the game turns into run-tanks-as-far-as-possible-into-the-enemy-main (as always, less true on very confined maps)

    i dont think there is a need for anti infantry mines, if you really want them add them, but also be aware that they might not change anything in the end (because the mines-in-rax-are-shite argument)
     
  17. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    You could at least have a separate mine limit, different activation speed or even condition, and any other effects you want on a infantry only mine. For random thoughts one thing I notice is that the only time you want to be moving and deploying mines is usually in a spot you shouldn't be dropping them, ie barracks. Any other time they are defensive so you would be alright with standing still for a second while you drop them.

    I wouldn't mind a nerf to grens defusal ability. Like you can still take 25-50% damage or whatever from mines and not simply drive past without a care.
     
  18. Ikalx

    Ikalx Member

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    Could you speed limit defuse?
     
  19. VulcanStorm

    VulcanStorm Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    Just my two cents, but I think mines are fine as they are, they should be deadly to infantry and deal decent damage to tanks (given enough of them).

    In their current state, i find that both vehicles and infantry can effectively "clear" minefields, either by tanking the damage, defusing, or just running at them and being revived (Although whether this is an "exploit" is definitely up for debate). They act as a barrier to all except for a gren with defusal.

    If the mines were to be split into two separate weapons, then surely a grenadier should have access to both on the battlefield, not have to choose between anti-infantry or anti-vehicles, as both may be necessary and to maintain their current versatility. However the quantities of each should change.

    If the damage vs infantry were to drop to a non-lethal amount, people would still be clearing mines the same way... Run at them, die, and be revived. Except for now you can remove 2 instead of one hence allowing faster removal of mine fields. And if the mine count were lowered too... would this make grens used less?
     
  20. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I want you to look at who goes gren, and pay attention to what they are getting kills with along with where they are on the scoreboard. District is not a good metric before anyone says something.

    Remember, the main point of a gren has always been anti tank role.
     

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