Are mines too powerful against infantry?

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Sgt.Security, Mar 24, 2016.

?

What to do with mines?

  1. Mines should deal 85 damage to infantry

  2. Mines should deal 105 damage to infantry

  3. Mines should deal 150 damage to infantry (current)

  4. Mines should force you prone until healed if they do not kill

  5. Split mines into infantry and tank mines

  6. Keep mines as one weapon

  7. Mines should deal 10% more damage to tanks

  8. Mines are perfectly fine versus tanks now, thank you very much

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  1. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    My answer : Yes.
    Now, I personally don't care because I only step on 1~2 visible mines every month, but let's get rid of that vet ego for a moment.

    Remember when we had VIPER stats? Mines were top 10 in terms of kill count.
    Mines are drop-and-forget and take little time to deploy.

    "Something that's not very easy to notice kills you instantly", I doubt this is pleasant experience for anyone, especially new players.
    Like the reason I nerfed shotty pistol : 1-shot-kill lacks interaction.

    Now, here's my plan, 85 damage to infantry, a little larger explosion radius(maybe 25), 10~15% more damage against vehicle.
    You can still place 2-mine if you want 1-hit kill.

    What'd ya say?
    Oh and, I consider "Infantry shouldn't survive a mine" an invalid argument, don't bother posting that.
     
    Last edited: Mar 24, 2016
  2. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    It's meant for anti tank really, the trade off is worth it. A single gren shouldn't shut down an entire building by himself.
     
  3. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    1. make 3 mines vaporize any heavy (2 med, rest 1) and defusal reduce damage by idk 50-60%. treat cv special.
    2. make infantry immune to mines, except for explosion damage when triggered by tanks.
    3. ???
    4. beg people to play gren

    though i think it might not be that bad
     
  4. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    Sure, never noticed the difference when it was 2 mines to kill infantry, I just more rarely used single mines.


    But 3 to kill heavy?? nooo, too low.
    I like how it is now with vehicles. You usually need to finish up with your other weapons.
     
  5. flasche

    flasche Member Staff Member Moderator

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    well dont drive your heavy into areas where you expect mines then. but i see how it would completely shift the dynamic of the game if you couldnt just drive anywhere you wanted (be that good or bad)
     
  6. chernobog

    chernobog Member

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    I guess devs didn't learn anything from Battlefield series... You have anti-vehicle and anti-infantry mines for a good reason.

    Why bother putting supposed anti-vehicle mines if infrantry is going to set them off...?

    At very least make the mine having two modes, left click anti-infantry and right click anti-vehicle...
     
  7. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    I support the idea of anti tank mines. It would reduce the anti infantry mines. Plus it would be less tedious to place enough mines to kill a tank. I think 1-2 Antitank mines would be good for a gren, or 2-4 with ammo upgrade. The mine limit, 3?

    As far as infantry mines are concerned... well "Infantry shouldn't survive a mine" :p. Dropping mines in the Barracks is a proper way of sabotaging. However, I do not care about such a change, decreasing placed mine limit is a better option in combination with decreasing anti infantry mine usage by giving anti tank mines. Decrease mine limit to 5. you spawn with 5 so it seems legit. In this case Anti-Infantry mines would require a decrease in damage against tanks, while Anti-Tank mines would not be triggered by Infantry... obviously. Just clarifying.
     
  8. Tama

    Tama Developer Staff Member Web Developer

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    In my opinion, it is a very valid concern that a mine that deals significant damage to a tank should realistically most definitely kill a person. However, it's true that, in terms of gameplay, mines make for easy kills and require little strategic thought. So I agree with the suggested splitting of mines. This gives grenadier a choice between two mines; the current one, which deals significant damage to tanks, but is not triggered when infantry walks on it at all, and an infantry mine, which can be set off by vehicles but deals very little damage to them, while it instantly kills infantry that walks on it. (I don't agree with increasing the strength of mines - this has been discussed and rejected recently)

    It doesn't make sense to make mines too weak to kill infantry on their own; you may as well just double the deploy time for mines and halve the ammo, it's going to come down to the same, except that you screw over noobs who assume (rightly so!) that a mine would kill a person, and forget to place two like us vets. Likewise, changing the relative damage of vehicles vs infantry is just way more confusing than having two seperate mine types.

    Also, I think this improves the gameplay of defusal; you will have tanks clearing out areas of infantry mines, and vice-versa; if you're a gren defusing an anti-tank mine, you won't have infantry running up to you and killing the both of you. On that note, mines should be disabled as soon as a gren starts defusing it.
     
    Neoony, TheCreeper, ViroMan and 2 others like this.
  9. chernobog

    chernobog Member

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    Great post and align's with my opinion.

    Well why not make it simple? A mine with two modes?
     
  10. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    mines are so fine. its not "1 shot" when you can see it from miles away. its like saying a shot that takes 10 seconds to charge and kills you unless you press spacebar is an instant kill

    mines used to be so powerful that i could see why people would want to nerf them. now, they are not. the only reason why they get kills is because people dont care (theres a rev engy behind them, they need to clear the field for a heavy, etc)

    no to nerfing mines to 2 hits.
    no to having two types of mines (where people would probably end up choosing infantry mines because it gives them a higher amount of kills compared to using 8 mines to kill 1 heavy)
    yes to this. a very easy fix to a problem that actually exists. disabled while defusing, re-enabled if defusing is interupted.
     
  11. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    I don't think giving people a choice is wrong. Tank mines make sense. Some waste 1 minute placing all their mines to kill a tank. They are often killed by infantry in the process. Why not drop 1 or two mines and be done with it? It's not like people can spam tank mines.

    I also like the idea of remotely detonated explosives, but that probably takes it too far.
     
  12. complete_

    complete_ lamer

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    i dont walk around with defusal. i almost never die to mines. who is dying to mines? what are the situations in which people are dying to mines?
     
  13. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    I want to give a random thought about how if you stepped on a mine you would expect to lose a leg or something(sure there's that dying thing, but you would definitely expect to lose a leg). Some games do have broken legs, like firearms, but empires doesn't really have that. Could just make it kill all their stamina, so they are suddenly more vulnerable due to slower movement. Or make that out of breath thing last like 10 seconds, like a sticky stun. This is for people who don't want mines to kill in one hit but feel its not a good thing that it's not killing in one hit.
     
  14. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    I also strongly disagree with mines dealing tons of damage even to vehicles, I only plan to buff 10%.

    Now, people would expect any explosive cannon to instantly kill the target within explosion radius, but hey that's not happening here.
    Why should mine be the only exception?
    "doesn't make sense" "mines SHOULD instant kill infantry" are invalid argument, that's just double-standard.

    Double deploy time, halve ammo is VERY DIFFERENT from 2 mines for a kill.
    Because you can only place 8 mines, 2 required for a kill leaves you a maximum of 4 possible instant-infantry-killing piles.

    Newbs don't know? Newbs don't know a lot of things in this game, also that's kind of your assumption, they probably expected the mines to severely damage someone.

    I disagree with spliting because for most of the cases, one is just outright better than the other one and vets would know.
    For newb? Any extra decision-making is an extra thing to fuck them up.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  15. Ranger

    Ranger Member

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    Well done, you just disagreed with everyone in this thread.

    Cannons are for tanks, not infantry. Mines are for infantry, if they don't kill they are just annoying garbage. I said tank mines would have had a limit of 4 not 8. That's tweakable anyhow.

    You place mines with the goal to stop enemies from advancing. If one mine doesn't kill, you would be forced to drop 2 mines per spot, like on a door... Picture that in Shadowattacks
     
  16. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    First, "mines are for infantry" is just your assumption, Lazybum for example thinks otherwise. Not to mention our mines are efficient against both tank/infantry.

    Second, I am just saying it's all the same logic, "infantry shouldn't survive XXX", yeah infantry shouldn't survive a cannon in the face.
    We can arrange that so you'll instantly die to anything that "should" kill you, see if there's any fun left.


    Like I said, for new players, I am sure the pain of "stepping onto something that's not very easy to notice and dies instantly" is much much much much...*20 greater than the fun of "killing someone with a mine instantly".
    Not to mention new players rarely play Grenadier and/or know about mines.

    I don't step on mines, but I am sure this game is fucking retardedly horrible for a new player who dies to a mine 3 times in 2 minutes.

    I'll say this again, easy-1-shot-kill is horrible, no interaction is horrible. Mines have both.

    A problem with our Grenadier is that it's not very efficient at killing vehicles but it's not bad at killing infantry. That's why I plan to give mine more anti-vehicle power while nerfing anti-inf power.
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  17. ViroMan

    ViroMan Black Hole (*sniff*) Bully

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    You could make stepping on ONE mine give you permanent prone (until healed) and loose 85% health as you just got your legs wrecked.
     
  18. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    Wait, gren is not efficient at killing vehicles?
    Maybe when there is too many tanks, but when you face one two or 3, its not too hard.

    Also Iam not sure why think of mines like tank killers, its more of a damage dealer.

    Well maybe I did play a bit too much gren though.

    The thing is, that it CAN be efficient enough, but u gotta know how.


    I just really dont see why increase its vehicle damage, unless only against heavies and/or only late game.

    Also if you think mines are about 'place and forget' you are doing it wrong.... atleast with vehicles
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016
  19. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    "You gotta know how" "It's not like that to me"
    Even though I am the biggest egotistic fucker here, let's get rid of that vet ego for a moment and talk about general cases.

    Yes, mines are drop and forget.

    That buff is just a slight compensation, that's nothing much really.
     
  20. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    So, why increase mine damage by 10%?

    One thing Iam saying is that for Gren, its "limits" are already way too high. Its limits of what is possible to do or what is possible to learn to do, or how efficient you can be and on how many different things in the field.
    The only problem is the learning curve.
    And pretty much every time you would buff gren, you are also increasing its limits. Not much helping the learning curve.

    And that you (or whoever else) consider mines "plant and forget" is just your choice of how you play them. There is a better way to use them while actually thinking about them and using them to your advantage. (talking anti vehicles)
    If you dont just "plant and forget" they can be much more efficient. But you would have to forget that they are "plant and forget" though, because they dont have to be.

    I just hope you can filter out your "vet ego" complex thing and actually try to get what Iam saying. xD
     
    Last edited: Mar 25, 2016

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