A step forward for the grenadier class

Discussion in 'Feedback' started by Spike, Mar 18, 2017.

?

Grenadier Buff to be better infantry combat

  1. yes

    30.8%
  2. no

    69.2%
  1. Spike

    Spike Long Live The King!

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    Making the grenadier class better in infantry combat

    recently the grenadier has got a very nice buff against vehicles especially later on in the game due to the RPG damage upgrade which is great its something the game has needed for a very long time.

    However i still feel that grenadiers need to be better against infantry by giving them a 15 to 20 percent infantry bullet resist, a slight increase of the blast radius for the mortar explosion from perhaps 210 to 235 and a secondary unique weapon for grenadiers, a machine pistol for BE and a burst pistol for NF i will provide the scripts below to give you an idea on what they would be like.

    It would be very nice to see the grenadier class buffed in this sort of way. I know the grenadier class is currently very good but i feel it could be better. Also the grenadier specific weapons will make the grenadier class alot more interesting to play.

    Also another thing that would be really nice is some sort of hit indication to tell you if you have hit your target or not and even numbers going up the side of the grenadier mortar aiming reticle would also be nice.

    Grenadier aiming reticle with numbers example (i shall make edit the reticle and post it up once ive done it)
    [​IMG]


    BE burst pistol
    Code:
    WeaponData
    {
        // Weapon characteristics:
        "Damage"            "30"        // damage per bullet
        "Bullets"            "1"        // bullets per shoot
        "CycleTime"            "0.075"        // time between shoots
        "Falloff"            "1500"        // distance at which bullet strength has dropped to 85% (damage decreases linearly)
        "Falloffbase"            "0.9"        // Falloff Base default 0.85
        "MinimalDamage"            "20"        // bullet will always deal this amount of damage even after damage decrease
    
            //"BurstShots"           "3"        // shots per burst(0 for N/A)
        //"BurstCycleTime"          "0.1"        // time between bursts
    
        "Damage Head Modifier"        "1.5"
        "Damage Chest Modifier"        "1"
        "Damage Stomach Modifier"    "1"
        "Damage Left Arm Modifier"    "0.7"
        "Damage Right Arm Modifier"    "0.7"
        "Damage Left Leg Modifier"    "0.7"
        "Damage Right Leg Modifier"    "0.7"
    
    
        // Weapon data is loaded by both the Game and Client DLLs.
        "printname"            "Pistol"
        "viewmodel"            "models/Imperial/Weapons/v/machinepistol/imp_machinepistol.mdl"
        "playermodel"            "models/Imperial/Weapons/w/machinepistol/imp_machinepistol.mdl"
    
        "anim_prefix"            "Pistol"
        "bucket"            "0"
        "bucket_position"        "0"
    
        "clip_size"            "20"
        "clip2_size"            "-1"
    
        "primary_ammo"            "AMMO_PISTOL"
        "secondary_ammo"        "AMMO_MELEE"
    
        "weight"            "8"
        "item_flags"            "0"
    
        "BuiltRightHanded"        "0"
        "AllowFlipping"            "1"
    
        "MeleeWeapon"            "0"
        "MeleeDamage"            "50"    // damage per melee hit
        "MeleeCycleTime"        "0.5"    // time between melee attacks
       
            //Accuracy Upgrade Modifier. Default is 0.75. The lower the better.
        "AccuracyUpgradeModifier"    "0.85"
    //Weapon Spread
        //When at rest
        "JumpingSpread"            "0.1"
        "StandingSpread"        "0.01"
        "DuckingSpread"            "0.004"
        "ProneSpread"            "0.004"
    
        //When moving at full speed (sv_maxspeed)
        "JumpingSpreadModifier"        "0.3"
        "StandingSpreadModifier"    "0.015"
        "DuckingSpreadModifier"        "0.01"
        "ProneSpreadModifier"        "0.01"
    
        //Maximum the spread can become due to spread increment per shot below
        "JumpingSpreadMax"        "0.3"
        "StandingSpreadMax"        "0.05"
        "DuckingSpreadMax"        "0.05"
        "ProneSpreadMax"        "0.05"
    
        //Increment spread by this amount for every shot fired to maximum of moving at full speed spread
        "JumpingSpreadIncrement"    "0.01"
        "StandingSpreadIncrement"    "0.005"
        "DuckingSpreadIncrement"    "0.005"
        "ProneSpreadIncrement"        "0.005"
    
        //Decrease spread by this amount for every second not fired down to minimum rest spread
        "JumpingSpreadDecrement"    "0.005"
        "StandingSpreadDecrement"    "0.08"
        "DuckingSpreadDecrement"    "0.08"
        "ProneSpreadDecrement"        "0.08"
    
        //Weapon kick range x (vertical) and y (horizontal), full and no spread, max and min
        //interpolates between full and no spread value based on current spread (percentage inbetween at rest and maximum spread due to firing)
        //The max and min values are for defining a range that a random number is generated between
        "JumpingKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "11"
        "JumpingKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "9"
        "JumpingKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "7"
        "JumpingKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "5"
    
        "JumpingKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "JumpingKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "-1"
        "JumpingKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.5"
        "JumpingKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "-0.5"
    
        "StandingKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "1.3"
        "StandingKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "1"
        "StandingKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "1.3"
        "StandingKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "1"
    
        "StandingKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "StandingKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "0.5"
        "StandingKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.75"
        "StandingKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "0.3"
    
        "DuckingKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "DuckingKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "DuckingKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "0.5"
        "DuckingKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    
        "DuckingKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "0.1"
        "DuckingKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "DuckingKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.05"
        "DuckingKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    
        "ProneKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "ProneKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "ProneKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "0.5"
        "ProneKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    
        "ProneKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "0.1"
        "ProneKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "ProneKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.05"
        "ProneKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    //End Weapon Spread
    
    
        // Sounds for the weapon. There is a max of 16 sounds per category (i.e. max 16 "single_shot" sounds)
        SoundData
        {
            //"reload"            "Default.Reload"
            //"empty"            "Default.ClipEmpty_Rifle"
            "single_shot"            "IMP_MachinePistol.Fire"
        }
    
        // Weapon Sprite data is loaded by the Client DLL.
        TextureData
        {
            "weapon"
            {
                    "font"        "EmpiresTypeDeath"
                    "character"    "H"
            }
            "weapon_s"
            {
                    "font"        "EmpiresTypeDeath"
                    "character"    "H"
            }
            "ammo"
            {
                    "font"        "WeaponIcons"
                    "character"    "r"
            }
            "crosshair"
            {
                    "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                    "x"        "0"
                    "y"        "48"
                    "width"        "24"
                    "height"    "24"
            }
            "autoaim"
            {
                    "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                    "x"            "0"
                    "y"            "48"
                    "width"        "24"
                    "height"    "24"
            }
        }
        ModelBounds
        {
            Viewmodel
            {
                Mins    "-10 -4 -13"
                Maxs    "21 9 -1"
            }
            World
            {
                Mins    "-10 -7 -6"
                Maxs    "22 8 9"
            }
        }
    }
    NF bust pistol
    Code:
    WeaponData
    {
        // Weapon characteristics:
        "Damage"            "32"        // damage per bullet
        "Bullets"            "1"        // bullets per shoot
        "CycleTime"            "0.06"        // time between shoots
        "Falloff"            "1500"        // distance at which bullet strength has dropped to 85% (damage decreases linearly)
        "Falloffbase"            "0.9"        // Falloff Base default 0.85
        "MinimalDamage"            "22"        // bullet will always deal this amount of damage even after damage decrease
    
            "BurstShots"               "3"        // shots per burst(0 for N/A)
        "BurstCycleTime"          "0.1"        // time between bursts
    
        "Damage Head Modifier"        "1.5"
        "Damage Chest Modifier"        "1"
        "Damage Stomach Modifier"    "1"
        "Damage Left Arm Modifier"    "0.7"
        "Damage Right Arm Modifier"    "0.7"
        "Damage Left Leg Modifier"    "0.7"
        "Damage Right Leg Modifier"    "0.7"
       
        // Weapon data is loaded by both the Game and Client DLLs.
        "printname"            "Pistol"
        "viewmodel"            "models/NF/Weapons/v/pistol2/nf_pistol2.mdl"
        "playermodel"            "models/NF/Weapons/w/pistol2/nf_pistol2.mdl"
    
        "anim_prefix"            "pistol"
        "bucket"            "0"
        "bucket_position"        "0"
    
        "clip_size"            "15"
        "clip2_size"            "-1"
    
        "primary_ammo"            "AMMO_PISTOL"
        "secondary_ammo"        "AMMO_MELEE"
    
        "weight"            "8"
        "item_flags"            "0"
    
        "BuiltRightHanded"        "0"
        "AllowFlipping"            "1"
    
        "MeleeWeapon"            "0"
        "MeleeDamage"            "70"    // damage per melee hit
        "MeleeCycleTime"        "0.5"    // time between melee attacks
    
        //Accuracy Upgrade Modifier. Default is 0.75. The lower the better.
        "AccuracyUpgradeModifier"    "0.90"
    //Weapon Spread
        //When at rest
        "JumpingSpread"            "0.1"
        "StandingSpread"        "0.015"
        "DuckingSpread"            "0.004"
        "ProneSpread"            "0.004"
    
        //When moving at full speed (sv_maxspeed)
        "JumpingSpreadModifier"        "0.3"
        "StandingSpreadModifier"    "0.01"
        "DuckingSpreadModifier"        "0.01"
        "ProneSpreadModifier"        "0.01"
    
        //Maximum the spread can become due to spread increment per shot below
        "JumpingSpreadMax"        "0.3"
        "StandingSpreadMax"        "0.05"
        "DuckingSpreadMax"        "0.05"
        "ProneSpreadMax"        "0.05"
    
        //Increment spread by this amount for every shot fired to maximum of moving at full speed spread
        "JumpingSpreadIncrement"    "0.01"
        "StandingSpreadIncrement"    "0.005"
        "DuckingSpreadIncrement"    "0.005"
        "ProneSpreadIncrement"        "0.005"
    
        //Decrease spread by this amount for every second not fired down to minimum rest spread
        "JumpingSpreadDecrement"    "0.005"
        "StandingSpreadDecrement"    "0.08"
        "DuckingSpreadDecrement"    "0.08"
        "ProneSpreadDecrement"        "0.08"
    
        //Weapon kick range x (vertical) and y (horizontal), full and no spread, max and min
        //interpolates between full and no spread value based on current spread (percentage inbetween at rest and maximum spread due to firing)
        //The max and min values are for defining a range that a random number is generated between
        "JumpingKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "11"
        "JumpingKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "9"
        "JumpingKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "7"
        "JumpingKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "5"
    
        "JumpingKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "JumpingKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "-1"
        "JumpingKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.5"
        "JumpingKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "-0.5"
    
        "StandingKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "1.3"
        "StandingKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "1"
        "StandingKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "1.3"
        "StandingKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "1"
    
        "StandingKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "StandingKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "0.5"
        "StandingKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.75"
        "StandingKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "0.3"
    
        "DuckingKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "DuckingKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "DuckingKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "0.5"
        "DuckingKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    
        "DuckingKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "0.1"
        "DuckingKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "DuckingKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.05"
        "DuckingKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    
        "ProneKick_X_FullSpread_Max"    "1"
        "ProneKick_X_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "ProneKick_X_NoSpread_Max"    "0.5"
        "ProneKick_X_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    
        "ProneKick_Y_FullSpread_Max"    "0.1"
        "ProneKick_Y_FullSpread_Min"    "0"
        "ProneKick_Y_NoSpread_Max"    "0.05"
        "ProneKick_Y_NoSpread_Min"    "0"
    //End Weapon Spread
    
    
    
        // Sounds for the weapon. There is a max of 16 sounds per category (i.e. max 16 "single_shot" sounds)
        SoundData
        {
            //"reload"            "Default.Reload"
            //"empty"            "Default.ClipEmpty_Rifle"
            "single_shot"            "NF_Pistol.Fire"
        }
    
        // Weapon Sprite data is loaded by the Client DLL.
        TextureData
        {
            "weapon"
            {
                    "font"        "EmpiresTypeDeath"
                    "character"    "h"
            }
            "weapon_s"
            {
                    "font"        "EmpiresTypeDeath"
                    "character"    "h"
            }
            "ammo"
            {
                    "font"        "WeaponIcons"
                    "character"    "r"
            }
            "crosshair"
            {
                    "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                    "x"        "0"
                    "y"        "48"
                    "width"        "24"
                    "height"    "24"
            }
            "autoaim"
            {
                    "file"        "sprites/crosshairs"
                    "x"            "0"
                    "y"            "48"
                    "width"        "24"
                    "height"    "24"
            }
        }
        ModelBounds
        {
            Viewmodel
            {
                Mins    "-10 -4 -13"
                Maxs    "21 9 -1"
            }
            World
            {
                Mins    "-10 -7 -6"
                Maxs    "22 8 9"
            }
        }
    }
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  2. Avatarix

    Avatarix Member

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    Maybe an addition to Artillery Feedback skill?
    If you damage a building/enemy it would show up some kind of marker in the middle of aiming reticule?
     
  3. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    When it comes to alternative to the show damage plugin, I stumbled upon this one: https://forums.alliedmods.net/showthread.php?p=892099
    You could set some very subtle sound to it.
    Maybe crosshair indication might be better, but had to share this one too :P

    But then watch out, many consider a damage indication as a tiny wallhack. ( or a probe that you sent out xD detecting enemies on impact xD )
    And it can indeed help more to the vets, than to those who are trying to learn.
    But yeah, it can help to learn.

    But the numbers on the aiming reticle is actually pretty good idea.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  4. Spike

    Spike Long Live The King!

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    ill see what that sound indication is like thanks for suggesting it neoony <3
     
  5. Lazybum

    Lazybum :D Staff Member Moderator

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    Gren is great at indirect fire, like hitting people behind walls. People should do that more often. Has the benefit of being able to do it behind cover, so you got dat 100% bullet resist.

    I like the numbers edit on the mortar I think, and more weapons is nice. Not generally a fan of burst weapons but they can be fun to use time to time. You commented out the burst part on the be pistol though, thought you should know.

    Avatarix saying to add the hit marker to arty feedback would make it a skill kinda worthwhile to have for infantry engagements too, so I like that idea too.
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
  6. Tama

    Tama Developer Staff Member Web Developer

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    I like the numbers, however, I think making it 1 through 9 like that is up for suggestions, since it won't mean anything real anyway. It could perhaps be made plausible for the backstory.

    I've always assumed it was an augmented reality overlay in the soldier's headset. So, if the soldier rotates the weapon in his hands, this is equivalent to moving the view up and down, and makes the AR overlay show the angle of the weapon to horizontal; so, perhaps the 1 to 9 means 10 degrees through 90 degrees rotation. I would like to add a zero beside each number, only half the size of the first number.

    I also agree that the grenadier pistol is just too weak. Making it a bit stronger isn't going to affect vets, they are still going to use one-shot-kill-mortar, as long as you don't want to make the pistol more accurate, I agree. Grenadier is still terrible against infantry, of course, but those new players that just haven't gotten the hang of the mortar yet deserve a little boost of their pistol, I reckon.
     
  7. Señor_Awesome

    Señor_Awesome Member

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  8. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    I would say one of the biggest advantages of mortar is, that you literally only have to expose yourself for less than a second to fire it, or not even exposing yourself just shooting from cover.
    Thats a huge mobility/agility advantage.

    But anyway...
    ..I still dont see how is gren is not effective against infantry....at least after you already got the hang of mortar.
    The splash is just way too good infantry killer.
    And especially when you combine it with only exposing yourself to shoot, not even watching where it landed. (you can notice at my random escort gren video, Iam usually already on my way back to cover when Iam shooting and rarely see it land)

    The only good reason to use the pistol, is to finish someone off after already damaging them with mortar...pretty much. (currently)
    And its good enough, imo.
    Or there is not very often a situation where you would ONLY use the pistol, unless super long range....or...well..unless you dont have the hang with mortar yet.
    But its pretty much always better to advance and just use the mortar and then maybe finish it off with pistol.

    But yeah, I get that I played it a bit too much.
    But I tend to judge how good some class is, based on what is possible to learn and then do with it.

    I would say the one big problem is learning curve and hence people tend to underestimate whats possible to do with it, after you get the hang of it.
    And mortar is very much depending on the skill of the individual to predict things and remembering the arc and learning to use it and mainly to learn how to move (thats super important, grens main feature/advantage is his mobility, especially when it only takes like 10ms to shoot the mortar and I see too often people playing gren way too staticly)

    I might even actually say that its still better at killing infantry than it is with killing tanks, lol

    But I know, I said these things too many times :P
    But just my opinion...I wont be stopping you :P

    EDIT: like what can engi or rifle or scout do, when they only see you for a second or not at all and they have a 130+ damage shell suddenly coming at them along with the quite huge splash, + you can do the same with rpg for a lucky shot or then finish off with pistol
     
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2017
    D.D.D. Destroyer and Thexa4 like this.
  9. Spike

    Spike Long Live The King!

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    The pistol 1 is a actually great i just think there needs to more variation with grenadier sidearms.
     
  10. Neoony

    Neoony Member

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    I just wonder if it was maybe better to number the arc like this:
    -4
    -3
    -2
    -1
    0
    +1
    +2
    +3
    +4
    +5

    And you would name the lines.
    Not the empty boxes.

    Maybe better?
     
  11. Thexa4

    Thexa4 Developer Staff Member Moderator

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    It's based on this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stadiametric_rangefinding (especially the image at the bottom)

    So if we add numbers it would be useful to use meters based on the width of a heavy tank for example. Even better would be to calibrate it so you actually hit a tank if you accurately fit it within the width of the curves :) [might be quite a lot of work to do correctly though]
     
  12. Sgt.Security

    Sgt.Security Member

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    Here I'll list the conclusions.

    1: Yes, NF grenadier could use an extra pistol, currently there's only 2 options.
    2: No, grenadiers shouldn't be better against infantry.

    Keep in mind, grenadier is already far better at anti-vehicle than other classes.
    But its anti-infantry power is not exactly far inferior than other classes (maybe just rifleman).

    With all that being said, the biggest problem when it comes to adding a new weapon...is the model.
    Not really, remember when shotty pistol used to deal 20~30 higher damage per shot with 0.1 sec cycle time, people didn't even bother with mortar at close range, they just pewpew enemy.
     
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2017
  13. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    Grenadiers really don't need more anti-infantry capabilities. They are extremely deadly in 1v1 conditions already, and peter out as (coordinated, so rarely) enemies grow in number only due to the mortar not reloading fast enough. One shot with the mortar usually either kills the enemy outright or removes over half an enemy's health, and landing 1-3 pistol shots is quite easy afterwards - they need time to adjust after the mortar's push, you switch weapons, all the while you kept moving throughout and the other person was getting ready to shoot you.
     
  14. Avatarix

    Avatarix Member

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    We literally got a skill for that but OK
    Reaction images beats stating your opinion, eh?

    But yes, grenadier is good enough agains infantry already (noticed that after playing one match on escort as NF).
     
  15. D.D.D. Destroyer

    D.D.D. Destroyer Member Staff Member Moderator

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    No we don't. Enhanced senses shows you enemies around you and isn't based on hitting anything. Artillery feedback only tells you where shots land, not if they hit someone. And both are tied to their own single class, not to mention them taking up a slot for other, often more useful, skills.
     
  16. Avatarix

    Avatarix Member

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    nvm im dumdum, i mean detecting ground on impact
     

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